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Philosophical Objections to Trek Lit

They might simply set themselves up as a different level of God. You know, merely omnipotent beings who control destiny, rather than the High God who also created everything there is and more, who extends beyond time, and who has the ultimate moral say.

Many cultures have postulated the existence of multiple tiers of deities, and it's certainly not unprecedented among humans for individuals (such as Pharaohs) to declare themselves gods while still believing in a higher pantheon of divinities.

As David said, the Founders have been canonically established as believing themselves to have evolved from "solids" into a higher form. David interpreted that as a belief that they'd evolved into something closer to God. So if they sincerely believed they were closer to divine status than solids were, it stands to reason that they would consider it perfectly natural and right for solids to worship them. It's not a scam, but a genuine belief that they are members of a multi-tiered pantheon/taxonomy of divinities.

Except such hypotheses a predicated on the notion that the Founders themselves would genuinely believe themselves to be gods, or partly divine, and as such there's no contradiction in their claims because, like the Pharaohs, it's all part of the same system. But there's never been any onscreen evidence to suggest that the Founders believed their own trite, and Olympus Descending refutes it explicitely:

"The Founders are not gods," she said. "We developed the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta into what they are now, we are powerful and superior to all solids. But the one, true God--the Progenitor--created the Founders."
Olympus Descending, p. 280

The Founders don't believe they are gods; they explicitely recognize the falsehood. And not only are these Founders theists, but they're exclusive monotheists, too!

There are certainly precedents for that IRL.

For instance...?

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
The Founders don't believe they are gods; they explicitely recognize the falsehood. And not only are these Founders theists, but they're exclusive monotheists, too!

It might be just a matter of semantics, though. "No, we are not Gods, we are Founders!" could be translated just as well into "No, we are not Supreme Gods, we are Gods!".

In practice, the shapeshifters could still be seeing themselves as divine creatures, towering over Solids both in physical prowess and moral righteousness much like the Olympians towered over ordinary mortals. They'd just reserve the word "God" for their monotheist supreme being - which is how the Universal Translator would readily translate it, too, finding the Anglo-American God the closest equivalent to the supreme being of the Founders.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Except such hypotheses a predicated on the notion that the Founders themselves would genuinely believe themselves to be gods, or partly divine, and as such there's no contradiction in their claims because, like the Pharaohs, it's all part of the same system. But there's never been any onscreen evidence to suggest that the Founders believed their own trite, and Olympus Descending refutes it explicitely:

"The Founders are not gods," she said. "We developed the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta into what they are now, we are powerful and superior to all solids. But the one, true God--the Progenitor--created the Founders."
Olympus Descending, p. 280

The Founders don't believe they are gods; they explicitely recognize the falsehood. And not only are these Founders theists, but they're exclusive monotheists, too!

It's semantics. The word "God" doesn't even translate exactly between different human languages; often, the attempt of English-speaking explorers/settlers to apply that word to another culture's concept of divinity has led to misunderstandings because there is no one-to-one correspondence of concepts. And when we're dealing with mechanical translation, even something as magical as Trek's UTs, there's even more potential for a formulaic substitution of terms leading to a misunderstanding of conceptual nuances.

No, the Founders don't believe they're on the same level of being as their God. But they do believe they are closer to divinity than solids are. There's only a contradiction if you insist on interpreting the words in precisely the way they're used in the English language. But it's monumentally naive to assume that an alien civilization would interpret the words to have exactly the same meaning with no variance even in the nuances, especially given that you won't even find that to be the case among different human languages.
 
I don't know if I really object to this, but the Prime Directive has been something that I always wrestle with, in regards to what it is and the way it is implemented.
 
:lol:

It just seems that the stances taken on the Prime Directive lack any real nuance. There's the people who follow it to the letter and stand by while planets die. There are those who straddle the issue and waffle and ultimately don't do anything to lean one way or another, and then there are those that would go bumbling about the Alpha Quadrant "rescuing" non-warp capable species.

Apart from the stances on the Prime Directive, it's also the stipulations. Warp-capable and having a unified planetary government. Earth barely qualified on the first, and AFAIK didn't at all on the second when the Vulcans came. It's almost a patronizing stance. And those are really fairly inflexible stances. What if a planet develops advanced communications on-par with the Federation, but doesn't have warp? What if they have all of the above, but have 7 major governments peacefully co-existing?

*shrug*
 
The Founders don't believe they are gods; they explicitely recognize the falsehood. And not only are these Founders theists, but they're exclusive monotheists, too!
Exactly so, Trent. It seemed to me that a people as militant in their behavior and beliefs as the Founders would best be portrayed as honest with themselves (though certainly it is possible to have reasonably depicted them in a diametrically opposite manner). My point was that, having a belief in a divine entity would allow them to understand firsthand how such a belief, whether true or not, could be employed as a means of control. I posited that they had set themselves up as gods to the Jem'Hadar and to the Vorta (and no doubt to countless other races) not because they cleaved to their own press, but because they recognized the relative ease with which they could then maintain their stranglehold on power.
 
:lol:

It just seems that the stances taken on the Prime Directive lack any real nuance. There's the people who follow it to the letter and stand by while planets die. There are those who straddle the issue and waffle and ultimately don't do anything to lean one way or another, and then there are those that would go bumbling about the Alpha Quadrant "rescuing" non-warp capable species.

Apart from the stances on the Prime Directive, it's also the stipulations. Warp-capable and having a unified planetary government. Earth barely qualified on the first, and AFAIK didn't at all on the second when the Vulcans came. It's almost a patronizing stance. And those are really fairly inflexible stances. What if a planet develops advanced communications on-par with the Federation, but doesn't have warp? What if they have all of the above, but have 7 major governments peacefully co-existing?

*shrug*
I have to agree with you here. Earth not only didn't have a unified planetary government, they were essentially at war (IIRC) and it was the Vulcans' contact that made humans realize they should be unified. Now, I know the actual "Prime Directive" wasn't "created" until the Enterprise show timeline, right? But still, that implies that the Vulcans only used warp capability as a criterion.

As for the planetary government, as long as the planet is essentially at peace, I'm not sure the requirement for a unified planetary government should be there before the Federation can make contact. True, it would be difficult for the Federation to deal with leaders from multiple nations (or the aliens' equivalent), but why not contact them and say "Hey, you're warp-capable. You're at peace. If you can come up with a single government body for us to deal with from here on out, let's talk."
 
Apart from the stances on the Prime Directive, it's also the stipulations. Warp-capable and having a unified planetary government.
I never thought that the latter was a stipulation on contact under the Prime Directive, but rather for Federation membership.

What if a planet develops advanced communications on-par with the Federation, but doesn't have warp?
Then they'll probably detect Federation or other alien transmissions, thus knowing that those cultures exist, which would exempt them from Prime Directive protection.
 
FWIW, there are a couple of good examinations of the PD in the Corps of Engineers series, particularly in the aptly named Fables of the Prime Directive by Cory Rushton, available as an eBook and coming to dead-tree form in October's Wounds....
 
I was always under the impression that a unified government was a requirement for joining the Federation, not for making federation contact.
 
I was always under the impression that a unified government was a requirement for joining the Federation, not for making federation contact.
Ahh, that could well be.

Unfortunately for me, I (somewhat irrationally) equate Prime Directive wishy-washyness with Janeway on Voyager. Yes, yes, I know it's irrational. And I know my quibbles with what I perceive as Janeway's inconsistency are not necessarily about the Prime Directive. But the character's actions drove me NUTS, especially the one in which some alien technology mind-raped a bunch of Starfleet people to the point they experience true post-traumatic stress syndrome.... and Janeway concluded, oh well, we'll leave the mind-rape technology there. We'll put up a warning beacon. Hello! Mind-rape!

{/rant} (Well, I told you I was going to be irrational! Apologies for off-topic-ness -- but this somehow is all tied together in my mind.)
 
I was always under the impression that a unified government was a requirement for joining the Federation, not for making federation contact.
Ahh, that could well be.

I think that's correct.

Unfortunately for me, I (somewhat irrationally) equate Prime Directive wishy-washyness with Janeway on Voyager. Yes, yes, I know it's irrational. And I know my quibbles with what I perceive as Janeway's inconsistency are not necessarily about the Prime Directive. But the character's actions drove me NUTS, especially the one in which some alien technology mind-raped a bunch of Starfleet people to the point they experience true post-traumatic stress syndrome.... and Janeway concluded, oh well, we'll leave the mind-rape technology there. We'll put up a warning beacon. Hello! Mind-rape!

{/rant} (Well, I told you I was going to be irrational! Apologies for off-topic-ness -- but this somehow is all tied together in my mind.)

:lol:It was a very well-written, well-thought rant. And it was amusing, and made several good points.

I have to agree with you here. Earth not only didn't have a unified planetary government, they were essentially at war (IIRC) and it was the Vulcans' contact that made humans realize they should be unified. Now, I know the actual "Prime Directive" wasn't "created" until the Enterprise show timeline, right? But still, that implies that the Vulcans only used warp capability as a criterion.

I think Earth was *just* starting to recover from the end of WWIII. But still, Earth barely qualified for two of the stipulations. And, one has to wonder if the Vulcans or any other species were monitoring what Earth had been doing, up to and including WWIII...

As for the planetary government, as long as the planet is essentially at peace, I'm not sure the requirement for a unified planetary government should be there before the Federation can make contact. True, it would be difficult for the Federation to deal with leaders from multiple nations (or the aliens' equivalent), but why not contact them and say "Hey, you're warp-capable. You're at peace. If you can come up with a single government body for us to deal with from here on out, let's talk."

But if they create a single government body, that would fulfill the "unified planetary government" tenet of the Prime Directive.

God, I wonder if I'm acting the way that Una Lillius would...
 
It might be just a matter of semantics, though. "No, we are not Gods, we are Founders!" could be translated just as well into "No, we are not Supreme Gods, we are Gods!".

It's semantics. The word "God" doesn't even translate exactly between different human languages; often, the attempt of English-speaking explorers/settlers to apply that word to another culture's concept of divinity has led to misunderstandings because there is no one-to-one correspondence of concepts. And when we're dealing with mechanical translation, even something as magical as Trek's UTs, there's even more potential for a formulaic substitution of terms leading to a misunderstanding of conceptual nuances.

Guys, it's written plain on the page. Questions of the UT do not apply, since it's a conversation between the Founder and a Jem'Hadar; the fact that it's written in English is because it's an English-language book, and there's no reason the author could not have chosen the terminology he best saw fit to use. If you consider this passage suspect, then essentially all parts of the novel written from non-anglophone perspective (which is most if not all of it) are likewise suspect, degenerating into utter solipsism. I mean, if you won't accept "We're not Gods" as evidence that the Founders don't think of themselves as deities, what will you accept? At this point, I worry that you're arguing from a desired conclusion.

Exactly so, Trent. It seemed to me that a people as militant in their behavior and beliefs as the Founders would best be portrayed as honest with themselves (though certainly it is possible to have reasonably depicted them in a diametrically opposite manner). My point was that, having a belief in a divine entity would allow them to understand firsthand how such a belief, whether true or not, could be employed as a means of control. I posited that they had set themselves up as gods to the Jem'Hadar and to the Vorta (and no doubt to countless other races) not because they cleaved to their own press, but because they recognized the relative ease with which they could then maintain their stranglehold on power.

But what bugs me is this: recognizing that religion can be used as a means of control and manipulation should cause a reflexive reevaluation of their own faith; I don't understand how one can pose as a deity without that raising significant questions about the reality of their own deity (unless the Founders as a species are so incredibly compartementalized, as Marian suggested, to the point of being incapable of introspection - ironic, that their mindset would be so rigid when their bodies are so flexible). I was trying to think that perhaps Founder theology wasn't so rigid, that in the normal course of the culture there were doubts and dissenters (certainly the skepticism of Laas and Odo demonstrate that it's not innate unlike other Founder impulses, but culturally determined), particularly after the God supposedly goes missing. The display of religiosity on the part of the Great Link in the book could be related to the appearance of the nova; after all, after all, the appearance of a religious symbol is bound to trigger greater religious sentiment in what could have been a more moderate population. There's the female Founder, but she's in jail, and we know contemporaneously that religious belief and observance spikes in incarcerated inmates, and the psychological reasons for that spike could apply to the Founder even if the practical ones--group formation and protection, brown-nosing theocratic judges--do not. But there's still the matter of the Hundred, which has Abraham/Isaac written all over it. A doubtful culture does not decide to engage in what is almost tantamount to mass child sacrifice. So, again, I bump up against the hurdle of how you can have such deep, abiding belief in a divinity when you know for a fact how empty such claims can be.

Unfortunately for me, I (somewhat irrationally) equate Prime Directive wishy-washyness with Janeway on Voyager. Yes, yes, I know it's irrational. And I know my quibbles with what I perceive as Janeway's inconsistency are not necessarily about the Prime Directive. But the character's actions drove me NUTS, especially the one in which some alien technology mind-raped a bunch of Starfleet people to the point they experience true post-traumatic stress syndrome.... and Janeway concluded, oh well, we'll leave the mind-rape technology there. We'll put up a warning beacon. Hello! Mind-rape!

That was an incredibly dumb resolution, and I quite agree that it was the wrong decision to make. But I'm pretty sure that the unified planetary government thing is only for Federation membership; we've seen a number of times when Our Heroes get caught up in civil conflict, so unity is not required for contact.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
I think Earth was *just* starting to recover from the end of WWIII. But still, Earth barely qualified for two of the stipulations. And, one has to wonder if the Vulcans or any other species were monitoring what Earth had been doing, up to and including WWIII...

ENT's S2 episode "Carbon Creek" shows Vulcans were visiting Earth for covert surveillance as early as the 1950s. Troi does specifically say in FC that until the warp flight Vulcans have no interest in humans as they're 'too violent' indicating at least passing familiarity with at least the previous 60-70 years worth of events.

the novel "Prime Directive" indicated Vulcan surveillance of Earth goes back as far as the beginning of the 20C as they averted a comet impact that would've hit Europe, causing instead the Tunguska Event.
 
And of course, Strangers from the Sky is predicated on secret Vulcan observations of Earth (and other planets), which were even conducted previous to the development of warp drive.
 
Apart from the stances on the Prime Directive, it's also the stipulations. Warp-capable and having a unified planetary government.
I never thought that the latter was a stipulation on contact under the Prime Directive, but rather for Federation membership.

You and the others who said this are right. The only parameter for contact under the PD is warp capability (or at least a pre-existing knowledge of alien life). A unified government is a parameter for joining the UFP. We've seen starships make contact with many, many worlds that didn't have unified governments -- including in the very episode that established that as a parameter for membership, TNG's "Attached."
 
Unlike GR, who signed off on the tech manual in the 70s, approved all designs including the dreadnought, and didn't object to the phrase "Star Fleet Armed Forces".

IIRC, GR signed off on the idea of Franz Joseph making a ST book based on a dead TV series, but he wasn't all that involved in vetting its content - only realizing, after it came out, that the more militaristic ST fans had taken the manual to their heart and were challenging GR to explain "loopholes" in TOS caused by the manual's tech and terminologies. He particularly disliked the idea of a dreadnought, and I fully expected Diane Carey's book to show the vessel to be problematic.

GR also could do nothing about the watertight contract that allowed FJ to license his ST work out to roleplay games - in those days, referred to as "war games".
 
Apart from the stances on the Prime Directive, it's also the stipulations. Warp-capable and having a unified planetary government.
I never thought that the latter was a stipulation on contact under the Prime Directive, but rather for Federation membership.

You and the others who said this are right. The only parameter for contact under the PD is warp capability (or at least a pre-existing knowledge of alien life). A unified government is a parameter for joining the UFP. We've seen starships make contact with many, many worlds that didn't have unified governments -- including in the very episode that established that as a parameter for membership, TNG's "Attached."

Dammit, and that's one of my favorite episodes, too.

*sigh*

BTW, if any of you haven't had the chance to yet, I highly recommend picking up The Meaning of Star Trek by Thomas Richards. I got it today, and it's really added a new level of analysis and meaning to what I already had.
 
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