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Philosophical Objections to Trek Lit

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let's keep the debate civil, please, everyone. thank you

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If some author started talking about the five steps to salvation in the acknowledgments because Jesus Christ was a big influence on them, would you consider that "entirely appropriate?"
actually, I've seen plenty of ackonwledgements that thanked God or Jesus Christ, it's not unusual.
 
let's keep the debate civil, please, everyone.




If some author started talking about the five steps to salvation in the acknowledgments because Jesus Christ was a big influence on them, would you consider that "entirely appropriate?"
actually, I've seen plenty of ackonwledgements that thanked God or Jesus Christ, it's not unusual.

They thanked God, but they didn't start outlining the gospel, which would be more analogous to the example in question. Thanking someone is a lot different than mentioning an unjust and unlawful war (not the exact quote, but I'm pretty sure that's close enough). That's not thanking anyone, that's a political statement.
Here's maybe a better example: if someone said "I'd like to thank God and you're all going to hell!" would that be something you find fitting for an acknowledgment section? I wouldn't. It's just the author's personal rant (and no, I don't agree with that).
 
^ If that was their thing, sure.

If authors can just talk about whatever in that section, then why isn't it called "A personal message from the author" or "Stan's Soapbox," instead of "Acknowledgements?"

Because, as was explained to you the last time you got worked up about this issue, the acknowledgements section is the author's personal space. They're free to -- as I just wrote -- thank or recognize whatever or whoever for their assistance, guidance, or inspiration while writing the book.
 
I'm trying to think here, and I honestly can't think of anything that has bothered me on a philosophical level in Trek Literature. There have been some plot-twists I haven't been fond of and some character development paths that I didn't find the most interesting, but nothing philosophically offensive.

Trek Canon, on the other hand...Ooo. "Profit and Lace,"; "Bound"; and probably a good deal of other Ferengi episodes I'm forgetting. Those are all the things that spring to mind for me.

EDIT: Also, unsatisfactory acknowledgment pages can be scribbled out with marker, physically removed from the book, or ignored.
 
^ If that was their thing, sure.

If authors can just talk about whatever in that section, then why isn't it called "A personal message from the author" or "Stan's Soapbox," instead of "Acknowledgements?"

Because, as was explained to you the last time you got worked up about this issue, the acknowledgements section is the author's personal space. They're free to -- as I just wrote -- thank or recognize whatever or whoever for their assistance, guidance, or inspiration while writing the book.

Yeah, it was explained to me before; I didn't agree with it then and I still don't. Just repeating the same thing doesn't make it any more convincing.
 
Would I be wrong in assuming that the acknowledgment pages are at least seen, if not approved or denied, by the editors at Pocket Books?
 
Would I be wrong in assuming that the acknowledgment pages are at least seen, if not approved or denied, by the editors at Pocket Books?

Seen, absolutely. But since they are intended to be a personal forum for the author, they generally aren't censored.

And fplks in general, can we please not spend fifty posts arguing about one paragraph of acknowledgments, especially since the debate has already been waged and there's not going to be a single new thing said on the subject? This thread is about Trek Lit, not about an acknowledgments page preceding a work of Trek Lit.
 
Would I be wrong in assuming that the acknowledgment pages are at least seen, if not approved or denied, by the editors at Pocket Books?

Seen, absolutely. But since they are intended to be a personal forum for the author, they generally aren't censored.

All right. I had figured that was what they did.

Trying to get back on topic, the only times I have disagreements with what's written is generally the sort of things that the characters say. One thing that comes to mind is this line that Beverly speaks in Section 31: Rogue. The phrase was relatively naive, and not something I would have expected her to say.

It's usually that sort of situation for me.
 
Perhaps not quite along the lines you were thinking, but I had an issue with the acknowledgement to an Enterprise book. The problem was not so much the political view expressed there itself, but its entirely inappropriate placement there. I actually refused to buy the book for that reason alone.

I thinkI know which book you're talking about, I bought two copies because of the acknowledgements. It made a great gift! And how anyone with the slightest knowledge about Star Trek and what it's about could possibly object to an anti-war sentiment (especially a war as criminal, unjustifiable and ineptly run as the Iraq war) is beyond me.

The objection is not to the sentiment. I have little quibble with people having their own political views, regardless of what they are. My concern is having them thrust at me. I would be quite annoyed if somebody came up to me on the street and started telling me their political views. To actually pay for something that does that, when it has nothing to do with the reason I'm buying the book, is quite objectionable to me.

If I wanted to read political views, I could get books that do that. I wanted a Star Trek: Enterprise book to read a Star Trek: Enterprise story. Now, if political allusions and allegories influence the narrative, that's a different matter - I'll assess the narrative alone, and if it takes me out of the story, then it is poorly done. Otherwise, if it's thought-provoking and interesting, full credit to the reader. I just found a little slab of the author's personal rant on a political issue to be quite inappropriate.

If it were a less popular political view, I doubt any author would be expressing it in that manner.


Edit: I was unaware this had been previously debated, and won't go on about it if others are sick of the topic. It is something that I had a strong reaction to, and wanted to mention here.
 
^ Well, you not being convinced doesn't make it any less true.

You could say that about anything and win the argument, in your own mind. That doesn't move the discussion forward, however.


No, facts are called facts for a reason. What the definition of an "acknowledgments section" of a book is, is not up for debate. It's like saying I don't believe this >> K << is the letter "K." It is, and there is no argument to be had over it, regardless of one's "belief" that it is not.


That aside... my only issue from Trek Lit that I can think of was brought up in another thread mere days ago. And that is with the hypocrisy displayed by some important people in Hollow Men.
 
i'm sorry but when people here say they are upset because of the placement of the opinion in the acknowledgment and not the opinion themselves, well i just don't believe that. i totally believe if the acknowledgment had said the iraq war rocked those people who are complaining about the the placement of authors opinions in the acknowledgment would not be saying anything.

we've become a society where a lot of people read or watch people they agree with and freak out if someone they don't agree with has a platform. look at http://www.creators.com/opinion.html. notice how each columnist is marked as a liberal or conservative. it's like people's heads are going to explode if the accidentally start reading something they don't agree with.
 
Makes sense to me. We tend to expect other people to think like us. So if a people are motivated by a strong religious belief, it stands to reason that they'd use religion as a means of motivating others. And just because you recognize that religions can be false doesn't mean you question your own religious faith. Indeed, all monotheistic religious faiths are predicated on the assumption that every other religion is false, or at least misinterpreted. So I really don't see any contradiction.

We've had this debate before, of course, and aren't likely to convince the other, but I still can't see people who pretend to be a diety, and are thus routine witnesses--from a top-down perspective to boot--to the artificiality of a religious system, turning around at the end of the day and practicing their own faith with such unabashed devotion and belief that they're willing to perform acts almost tantamount to child sacrifice, and then their entire society collapses when it turns out their deity has perished, much like their own Jem'Hadar comitting mass seppuku when a Founder dies (there's just a point at which irony becomes excessive, no?). I already find the beliefs of those monotheists who beatifically dismiss all other faiths while being certain of their own tinged with no small amount of hypocrisy; but it's one thing to be a mere mortal in service of a deity one believes exists, as opposed to another one doesn't believe in, and quite another thing to pretend to be that deity, and actively know (no belief required) of the falsehood. And, as I had said before, I was dissatisfied with the use of theology to explain the Founders' actions; because of the arbitrariness of much religious scripture, you can justify pretty much anything with an appeal to faith, and "God made me do it" doesn't make for interesting worldbuilding.

If some author started talking about the five steps to salvation in the acknowledgments because Jesus Christ was a big influence on them, would you consider that "entirely appropriate?"

People acknowledge Christ, God or whatever other deities they ascribe to all the time, for all kinds of things one couldn't possibly imagine omnipotent entities giving a flying damn about; sports, music, acting... (I remember a skit, I believe it was MAD TV, where God comes down to a hip-hop award show to tell eveybody "Stop thanking me; I had and want nothing to do with this.") So yes, the general consensus seems that giving a shout-out to Jay-See is entirely appropriate in thank-yous and acknowledgements. I never get angry when, say, Forrest Whittaker thanks God in his acceptance speech at the Oscars. Again, I think it's rather silly (does the Creator of the Universe really have nothing better to do than make sure you remember your lines?), but it's entirely his right to believe it, and say it.

No, because Acknowledgements are the place for acknowledgments, not for PSAs.

By the way, what is a "PSA"? I tried to look it up, but far too many things use that as an acronym. (Seriously, people, what happened to the good old innovative acronyms, like S.H.I.E.L.D. and C.L.I.T.O.R.I.S.?)

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

ETA: Oh, look, a second page. I absolutely must adjust my posts-per-page setting.

They thanked God, but they didn't start outlining the gospel, which would be more analogous to the example in question. Thanking someone is a lot different than mentioning an unjust and unlawful war (not the exact quote, but I'm pretty sure that's close enough). That's not thanking anyone, that's a political statement.

I think that, as a believer, and someone who probably hears a great many casual expressions of belief, you don't have a true appreciation for just how loaded with implications even the mere profession of divine existence is. If the authors had said, "There's a war" - that would just be stating a fact. "There's a war, and it's bad" - that's an opinion, or a political statement... just as "I thank Christ (and therefore assert the existence of such an entity) is an opinion, a theological statement. The believer might think they are merely expressing a fact ("there's a war" = "there's a god"), but I assure you those outside the specific religion (or all religions) clearly recognize the ideological apparatus behind the statement.

On a lighter note, while I'm editing the post, and considering the implications of divine acknowledgements, has anybody ever given thought to what actually being stated, beyond theological concerns? If a Grammy winner thanks god for the win, does it mean god wanted them to win, and thus god wanted that artist's fellow nominees to lose? In years when one doesn't win (or doesn't even get nominated), does that mean god wanted you to lose? And doesn't giving god a share of the credit in a way act as an attempt to place divine sanction on a product or event, i.e. if god didn't like that I'm singing about guns and pimps, he wouldn't have let me win? You know, this seemed silly when I started writing the paragraph, but now that I think of it, isn't there a portion of the population who believe that election wins are likewise divinely ordained? A dangerous stance, particularly if the winner is one of the believers...

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
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P.S.A.s are Public Service Announcements, such as ads on TV that remind kids to not take drugs, snitch on their parents, etc.
 
i'm sorry but when people here say they are upset because of the placement of the opinion in the acknowledgment and not the opinion themselves, well i just don't believe that. i totally believe if the acknowledgment had said the iraq war rocked those people who are complaining about the the placement of authors opinions in the acknowledgment would not be saying anything.

Then your belief would be wrong.
 
Christ.:rolleyes: RookieBatman, I never, never, never said that I "couldn't possibly understand how any Star Trek fan could reasonably hold my (your) position." What I said was that I couldn't see how any Star Trek fan could object to -an anti-war sentiment. But thanks for putting words in my mouth. :rolleyes:
 
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For my part, Trek lit is full of objectionable philosphical viewpoints, seemingly held by the various characters but sometimes shining through as the opinions of the author. I have no problem with that, as I greatly enjoy following the adventures, downfalls and triumphs of heroes and villains even when I hold them in contempt.

Many a character in the aired episodes of the various shows held objectionable views, too - beginning with the regular herbert, the tin-plated dictator with delusions of godhood, who was supposed to be the main protagonist in the one that began it all. That never reduced the impact or attractiveness of the show. The new Battlestar Galactica has no characters I could even remotely think of sympathizing with (indeed, it is unlikely I could keep myself from killing them all at sight if the opportunity offered itself), but the show itself remains as fascinating as ever.

Then again, I also watch the evening news. It probably calls for a certain mindset.

Timo Saloniemi
 
With the latter, I've never been able to get over the sheer cognitive dissonance of the idea of an entire group of people posing as deities being fervent believers in turn (not helped by the fact that the Founders' own theology was invented and destroyed in a single story, without any prior evidence for its existence).

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

I'd agree with this - there are interesting stories to tell with the dominion - this wasn't (to my mind) one of them.
 
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