Phantom Menace is the best Prequel.

[The Old Mixer]

Han acknowledges that the Jedi had powers when he dismisses them as "simple tricks and nonsense". It's a big galaxy and there were only so many Jedi to go around, their abilities would have had a legendary quality and he likely never saw one in action personally as a kid. By the time he'd grown up, as he said, he'd been from one end of the galaxy to another and seen a lot of strange things, but however the Jedi did the things that they were supposed to have done, he didn't accept their description of an all-powerful "Force" as the truth behind it, nor the assertion that this "Force" had anything to do with him.

The attitude of the Imperial officer that Vader Force-chokes in ANH also supports the idea that outsiders could be skeptical about the source and extent of the Jedi's powers.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I think it's clear that the Rebels were the keepers of the flame so to speak, maintaining belief in the Jedi and in the force, even though they were not, with exception of Luke, force-wielders. No EU explanation of this is needed; it's clear that they are the faithful.

Not having really interviewed the average person on the street, it's hard for us to gauge what the average person thought. Uncle Owen is not a typical Imperial citizen because Tatooine was on the Outer Rim.

Clearly, belief in the Force in the Imperial ranks was not encouraged. It's no surprise that at least in some circles, like Han's, cynicism, pragmatism, and self-reliance would dominate one's outlook, especially since the Jedi were nowhere to be seen once the Empire took over. That is, until Return of the Jedi, by which time Han was a true believer.

 

[Trekker4747]

What gets me about The Force thing in light of the Prequels is that there's a scientific explanation for it! The infamous midichlorians. It's no longer this magical or mystical thing that may or may no exist and is something you have to see to believe.

It's now science! We no how people can and cannot have it. That changes quite a damn bit.

 

[Whofan]

Midichlorians aren't the force. They're just how the body receives it.

 

[DWF]

What gets me about The Force thing in light of the Prequels is that there's a scientific explanation for it! The infamous midichlorians. It's no longer this magical or mystical thing that may or may no exist and is something you have to see to believe.

It's now science! We no how people can and cannot have it. That changes quite a damn bit.

But the Force was always real in the Star Wars universe, it was never a matter of faith. It wasn't magical to begin with.

 

[TheLobes]

What gets me about The Force thing in light of the Prequels is that there's a scientific explanation for it! The infamous midichlorians. It's no longer this magical or mystical thing that may or may no exist and is something you have to see to believe.

It's now science! We no how people can and cannot have it. That changes quite a damn bit.

I think the most baffling thing about the midichlorians was that they were only even mentioned one time. They just slip it in there and totally change the nature of the jedi and the force. Its only in there as a really lazy way to show that Anakin is strong in the force.

You can talk about the fact that its only how jedi access the force, but whats really frustrating is the idea that it somehow limits a jedi's abilities.

 

[DWF]

What gets me about The Force thing in light of the Prequels is that there's a scientific explanation for it! The infamous midichlorians. It's no longer this magical or mystical thing that may or may no exist and is something you have to see to believe.

It's now science! We no how people can and cannot have it. That changes quite a damn bit.

I think the most baffling thing about the midichlorians was that they were only even mentioned one time. They just slip it in there and totally change the nature of the jedi and the force. Its only in there as a really lazy way to show that Anakin is strong in the force.

You can talk about the fact that its only how jedi access the force, but whats really frustrating is the idea that it somehow limits a jedi's abilities.

They were mentioned more than once, they were mentioned in Ep. I and III.

 

[TheLobes]

I think it's clear that the Rebels were the keepers of the flame so to speak, maintaining belief in the Jedi and in the force, even though they were not, with exception of Luke, force-wielders. No EU explanation of this is needed; it's clear that they are the faithful.

Exactly. No explicit explanation is needed, because the atmosphere created by the quality writing in the OT is so suggestive of what the force means and who the jedi were. When Yoda talks about the force in ESB, its so emotional and inspiring, and it gives you a feeling of what the force means without sticking some clinical fact in our faces.

OT understands that most people dont need facts spoon fed to them in order to understand the nature of what is going on, it works because of the quality of the writing, the direction and the characters. PT gives you one line explanations with no art or interest.

 

[TheLobes]

They were mentioned more than once, they were mentioned in Ep. I and III.

Oh, right. My bad. Still pretty useless though!

 

[The Old Mixer]

What gets me about The Force thing in light of the Prequels is that there's a scientific explanation for it! The infamous midichlorians. It's no longer this magical or mystical thing that may or may no exist and is something you have to see to believe.

But that science may have been a trade secret of the Jedi, not standard textbook knowledge. And even if the existence of midichlorians was well-known, there's still plenty of room for skeptics who don't want to acknowledge the connection, or to acknowledge the general scope of the Force.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

Not really. It would be like atheists saying they don't believe in God when people who receive Christian training claim that their sacred mission is to protect freedom and democracy.

Han didn't say he didn't believe in the Jedi, or support them. He claimed to not believe in the very thing that gives them their superhuman abilities. Abilities that they demonstrate on numerous occasions.

It would be different if the Jedi were a myth, or worked in secret. But when they are the special forces of the galaxy, it makes it kind of hard to believe their superpowers are all b.s.

 

[Trekker4747]

Indeed. It seems like the Jedis are less myth and more "yeah these guys are real and here." and the scant 18 years or so that pass between ROTS and ANH wouldn't be enough for the Sith/Empire to completely wipe-out all record, memory and general knowledge of the Jedi.

Han writing them off so easily as a "myth" would be like my child in 18 years writing off the existence of Seal Team Six when knowledge and record of the existence is still pretty much fixed and fact.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

As I said, my take is that it's more a reflection of the circles that Han moved it, which, based on where Obi-Wan found him, was evidently largely the world of scum and villainy. It was well established in the prequels that the Jedi hardly frequented the worlds controlled by the Hutts anyway.

 

[Trekker4747]

As I said, my take is that it's more a reflection of the circles that Han moved it, which, based on where Obi-Wan found him, was evidently largely the world of scum and villainy. It was well established in the prequels that the Jedi hardly frequented the worlds controlled by the Hutts anyway.

That's right, and the idea of an intra-galactic media delivering news and information all over is just impossible.

Anakin and his mother, slaves living on Tatooine, seemed to have knowledge of and acceptance of The Jedi in TPM.

No matter who Han was around or with or where he was or what was going on he had certainly at some point seen an old book, a newspaper, a TV show or talked with someone that'd verify that the Jedi all existed just 18 years ago.

These Jedi did things like: had a very public battle in an arena 18-20 years ago (the arena fight in AOTC) and some even served as decorated fighter-pilots in the Clone Wars (opening of ROTS.)

Even if the Empire tried to stamp them down and re-write history about the Jedi never being around there's no way they close off and get rid of every source of information across a galaxy consisting of countless worlds and individuals.

Hell, Han's own parents could've told him, "Oh yeah, the Jedi were very much real. They did all kinds of secret and some not so secret things around the galaxy to ensure freedom and security. They even had a huge training facility on Coruscant that was raided a couple of years after you were born where nearly all of them were slaughtered. Really big shake-up in the galaxy and what probably lead to formation of the Empire."

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The idea of an intra-galactic broadcast media delivering either news or information to space claimed by the Empire that in any way favors the Jedi is in fact completely far-fetched.

 

[Trekker4747]

More far-fetched than that intra-galactic empire itself?

In a "world" consisting of billions of life forms it'd be impossible to keep information completely stamped down and even The Empire is going to have limited resources and be unable to keep all information everywhere within their restrictions.

And even if they could, 18 years is simply not enough time to completely erase every. Single. Reference to Jedis everywhere. There'd still be recordings of old programing, old books and such and simply just people still alive who were there and KNOW the Jedi exist.

Eighteen Years is not nearly enough time to completely erase all knowledge of something that was very much a public reality. Anyone claiming that there is no such thing as Jedi and never was would be seen on the level as Holocaust deniers are. Which, granted, Han's character could probably be seen as.

But that'd make him is intelligent and likable as, well, a Holocaust denier. Since the prequels showed that the Jedi were in pretty damn public operation during a time when Han was very much alive, if only just a child too young to form solid memories.

In the OT, sure, it seems that when the Jedi were around the operated in shadow and secret or at the very least their use of "The Force" was nothing more than magical hokey.

But the PT shows us that the Jedi were pretty public about their operations, used their powers pretty publicly, and then there's the fact that The Force is scientific fact as it's a biological component to life itself! It's something that could be measured, quantified and detected!

It's no longer magic. It's now an actual medical condition.

So for Han to deny The Force or the Jedi is to bury his head very, very, deep in the sand which makes him look "roguish and badass" but more like the idiot on the street-corner yelling about President Obama being a Muslim.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Some of you are grabbing the wrong end of the stick and beating around the bush with it. Nowhere in the OT does Han claim to have never heard of the Jedi--you're making a straw man out of that nonsense. His exact quote is:

"Kid, I’ve flown from one end of this galaxy to the other; I’ve seen a lot of strange stuff, but I’ve never seen anything to make me believe there’s one all-powerful force controlling everything. There’s no mystical energy field controlling my destiny. It’s all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."

To use a real-world analogy, I'm sure we've all heard of feats of physical and mental discipline that Buddhist monks are capable of....Does this mean that we must believe in Buddhism?

 

[Broccoli]

But then there's also the problem with the age between Anakin and Padme. In TPM Anakin is 8 years old and Padme is 17 years his senior.

Padme is meant to be 14 in Phantom Menace. Even if she was Natalie Portman's age - 19 - she wouldn't be 17 years Anakin's senior.

Take from that what you will.

Yeah, I fumbled with the math there, it's what I get for thinking before my afternoon nap. Regardless, Anakin is a child during TPM and Padme is in her teens and ruler of a world which really makes her more of a full-grown woman.

Maybe she was following the "half your age plus 7" rule.

 

[DimesDan]

Han writing them off so easily as a "myth" would be like my child in 18 years writing off the existence of Seal Team Six when knowledge and record of the existence is still pretty much fixed and fact.

And they would be who exactly?

 

[TremblingBluStar]

To use a real-world analogy, I'm sure we've all heard of feats of physical and mental discipline that Buddhist monks are capable of....Does this mean that we must believe in Buddhism?

When I see a Buddhist monk move things with his mind, outrun a bullet, and deflect lasers with a sword, I'll believe!

The entire line spoken by Han was rather strange in context of the rest of the series. He says the Force supposedly controls everything, including the destiny of all beings.

So the Force was responsible for the Empire? Gee, thanks!