Phage fallout

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Makarov, Jul 26, 2020.

  1. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'm up to this episode in my rewatch and I still don't get Janeway's decision to let the organ thieves go with Neelix's lungs.

    Anyone think morale would have dropped and maybe more crews would have mutinied if that situation ended like Janeway suggested, they simply leave with his organs leaving Neelix to die.

    It seems like after Janeway let's them go, they will continue to attack any innocents that happen to pass by the area.
     
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  2. Finn

    Finn Admiral Admiral

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    It would mean the death of that Vidiian.


    Janeway has done a lot of questionable decisions and behavior in 7 seasons. But this wasn’t one of them.

    And why would Janeway keep them from leaving??
     
  3. Farscape One

    Farscape One Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That was a tough position for her to be in.

    No Starfleet port to take them to. No medical ability to put them back in Neelix. And keeping them in the Brig would have been too costly for them in the long run. She really had no other viable option.

    And ultimately, the mercy paid off, because Kes was able to donate one lung to Neelix. It was the best solution of a virtually no-win scenario.
     
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  4. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It's crazy that the captain wouldn't do everything possible for her crewmember. She'd later take out Tuvix to save Tuvok and Neelix but wouldn't do the same in this situation.

    Even assuming the lungs would be near impossible to re implant, taking them back and trying is better than nothing. The crew would know if she didn't try.

    It's a little too convenient that the organ harvester grows a conscience. Even then they caused Kes diminished lung capacity for the rest of her life
     
  5. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Remind me again why they couldn't just replicate a new lung for Neelix?
    Or grow one in a lab?
    Seems like one of those things 24th century medicine should be capable of.
     
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  6. Tosk

    Tosk Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's one of the stupid things about the episode though...they tech-babble away the ability to replicate new lungs for Neelix, ("His respiratory system is directly linked to multiple points along his spinal column. It's too complex to replicate.") so all they had to do was replicate new lungs for the Vidiian and then get Neelix's own lungs back. Or give Neelix both of Kes' lungs and replicate her new ones. They completely ignore obvious logical solutions for drama, making the drama feel empty.
     
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  7. at Quark's

    at Quark's Commodore Commodore

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    That may be an example of how they are more "evolved" in the 24th century than in our time. Their own interest doesn't necessarily win out over the interest of a stranger by default anymore, when both interests (which in this case is, to continue leading a relatively normal life, or even to survive at all) seem to have about equal weight.

    Also, the Vidiian says he can't give the lungs back since they've been adapted already. Given that Vidiian science is superior to Federation science, Janeway has no way of knowing whether that is true or not (we have medical procedures that cannot be reversed in our time, too). Also, she cannot force them, because forcing them to cooperate would be a death warrant for the lung recipient either way and if he actually speaks the truth, it still wouldn't help Neelix.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2020
  8. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think they had an interest in Neelix surviving but also needed a response for them murdering their crew member. In TNG when the Crystalline Entity was killing for its survival, it was tracked down with the intention of destroying it if they couldnt convince it to stop. Here the attackers showed no sign that they would stop their attacks and even justified it. By releasing them in the same area she is dooming whoever else comes across them next to the same fate
     
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  9. valkyrie013

    valkyrie013 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Hmm, If they could "Replicate" new lungs for Neelix if it wasn't complicated.. then WHY couldn't the Viideians in the what.. 1000 years? figure out a way to "replicate, grow, etc." new organs instead of going all Frankenstien and stealing parts from other species. ??
    This and apparently most of the viidean species is healthy? I mean after a certain point, I think they would have done the horrible approach of finding out who has it, and throw them in quarantine and let the disease die out.
     
  10. at Quark's

    at Quark's Commodore Commodore

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    True, but only as a very last resort, Picard was extremely reluctant towards the idea.

    What would you have the Vidiians do, then (given that even with their advanced medical science, 2000 years of research apparently didn't produce another solution)? Roll over and die out as a species? Had the phage hit the Federation instead, I very much doubt they would have behaved differently in the long term (and certainly if DS9 is any indication). In that sense, I can understand their self-justification, though of course Janeway would well have been within her rights to keep them prisoner. Perhaps she should have. I think it's one of those impossible conundrums that don't have an unambiguous "correct" solution.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2020
  11. somebuddyx

    somebuddyx Captain Captain

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    It's really indecent of Janeway that she didn't immediately seek bloody vengeance on the entire Vidiian race for this vicious crime. I really think Neelix should have yelled at Janeway at the top of his...oh.
     
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  12. valkyrie013

    valkyrie013 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, Lets take this and run it through. First we would try to treat it, and quarantine affected, but lets say quarantine fails, and it gets out to the population, now lets say its 1 planet. If the leathality is high, which it was said 1000's die daily ( how a population survives this is.. questionable) then we'd do like to day and close down everything and quarantine ourselves in homes etc. and try to ride it out.
    So lets say this burns itself out, like most pandemics do, and then we live with whatever it was, like the 1918 pandemic, its still here, as the seasonal Flu.
    So lets say the Phage has hot years and cold years, and people learn to live with the disease if it can't be cured.
    any person is infected there quarantined and left to die.
    But after 2000 years, if the phage was that lethal still, they would be a dead species.. period, so there are a healthy set of Viidians living, and then somehow a certain percentage is infected, and they go and do desperate things.
     
  13. at Quark's

    at Quark's Commodore Commodore

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    If the Vidiians behaved like we do these days, it's no wonder their quarantine measures failed ....
     
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  14. valkyrie013

    valkyrie013 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    @at Quark's
    Then the speices would end up looking like The Stand.. where the Phage would have killed everybody it could have, then the only survivors would be those who would be naturaly immune, or those who took shelter and waited it out. Then a rebuild there race.
    Or they would be a "Dead Race" like the Drafa of B5 in there plauge episode.
     
  15. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Admiral Admiral

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    Neelix is a alien so his lungs are probably different from ours. Plus we have seen this kind of issue before. Dr Crusher couldn't replicate Romulan blood in "The Enemy" which is why she went to ask Worf for a transfusion. As for Janeway I think she did the right thing with a hard call. She should have though taken this times to basically download all sorts of info from their ships and run a few scans for the next time they might encounter them.


    Jason
     
  16. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I would say they should keep trying to find another way or go find another alien that can help them, there are certainly many we have seen in Trek that probably could. Even just introducing themselves and asking for donors in exchange for tech would make sense. If all else fails then yeah maybe it's time to preserve their culture Inner Light style.
     
  17. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Admiral Admiral

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    They are murdering other people so they can live, and it's not even a zero sum game, multiple people have to die to keep one Vidian alive. There's no even slight moral justification for that. If I needed a kidney transplant, I went out and found the first person I could find and cut out their kidneys and walked into the hospital and said "Put this in me", should they just understand that it was the only way for me to survive and not ask questions?

    Nothing the Federation did in DS9 is even slightly close to what they're doing. Being okay with killing two people to save trillions is not the same thing.

    If you're going to go with the cold 'Us against them' justification, then the same argument applies with Janeway executing them to save their future victims.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2020
  18. at Quark's

    at Quark's Commodore Commodore

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    I do not disagree with your points, but let me ask you a very simple question in return. What would you do if you were one of these Vidiians?

    It stretches the bound of belief a bit that they haven't been able to find such a cure in 2000 years, and within 5 years that Think Tank finds one, doesn't it ? Not to mention that species like the Voth might have been so advanced they could have helped (if they were willing to).
     
  19. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Admiral Admiral

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    Same thing I would do if I needed a heart transplant. Not murder anyone.

    If some organ donor with a similar heart to mine happened to die in a tragic car accident, I admit my emotions about the matter would not be entirely purely focused on that person's tragic fate. But I couldn't actually cause somebody's death to save my own and live with myself.
     
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  20. Tosk

    Tosk Vice Admiral Admiral

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    They are different from ours, that much is established. My main complaint wasn't the fact that they couldn't make Neelix new lungs, it was that they ignore all other options.