People in the UFP don't get paid. They don't get paid!!

[Mr. Laser Beam]

There was a novel that came out in the late 70's/early 80's, I can't remember the title, but it is IMHO a far more realistic explanation of what would happen if 'replicators' were ever invented.

(Actually in this novel, they didn't create things themselves, they just duplicated existing objects.)

So these duplicators were invented, and you want to know what happened as a result? Society became a brutal slave system. Those who had the 'duplicators' were the masters/overlords over those who didn't have them.

 

[The Borg Queen]

How is it realistic?

Was it written by a social psychologist?

 

[Colonel Green]

Babaganoosh said:
There was a novel that came out in the late 70's/early 80's, I can't remember the title, but it is IMHO a far more realistic explanation of what would happen if 'replicators' were ever invented.

(Actually in this novel, they didn't create things themselves, they just duplicated existing objects.)

So these duplicators were invented, and you want to know what happened as a result? Society became a brutal slave system. Those who had the 'duplicators' were the masters/overlords over those who didn't have them.

This there anything your AREN'T afraid of?

 

[Unicron]

Deks said:

And the line that no one would work for nothing ...
That is a load of nonsense.
Even today, there are people who do voluntary work for example.

I agree. Money is important in terms of survival, but there are millions of people who do jobs because they love them, not because of how much they're paid. Not all of the rewards from work are monetary, and ideally they shouldn't be.

 

[Colonel Green]

Necronomicon said:

Deks said:

And the line that no one would work for nothing ...
That is a load of nonsense.
Even today, there are people who do voluntary work for example.

I agree. Money is important in terms of survival, but there are millions of people who do jobs because they love them, not because of how much they're paid.

PLEASE! HELP ME MEET THESE PEOPLE! PLEASE!!!!

 

[Turtletrekker]

Babaganoosh said:
So these duplicators were invented, and you want to know what happened as a result? Society became a brutal slave system. Those who had the 'duplicators' were the masters/overlords over those who didn't have them.

Except that replicators are common household items. There isn't anybody who wants a replicator who doesn't have one.

 

[Deks]

OK ... when it comes to waiters in Sisko's restaurant ...
Did it ever occur to someone that there are people who like to do such jobs ?
They don't have to have extremely high demands for themselves if they think that line of work is enough for them and their way of life.
Not every human wants to be ultra rich/famous, plus thinking that waitering doesn't bring satisfaction to someone's life is plain and simple inaccurate because there are schools for that kind of line of work as well, and people do enjoy working in such positions.
Not every professional waiter would want to work for a fancy restaurant/establishment.
Some people are fine with doing jobs that are not perceived as 'popular'.

Waste cleaners/extraction is mostly done through computer and automation, but someone has to do maintain that system as well.
For example, I remember an episode of DS9 in which Rom was given a task of waste extraction.
Why ?
Well for one thing he needed experience and O'Brien was not exactly too keen on putting a 'rookie' in a challenging line of work immediately because he figured Rom has to start from somewhere and prove himself.
This is common in real life as well.
Rom was very well versed in technical aspects, but O'Brien wanted to give him training and not treat him any differently than anyone else.

DS9 did a somewhat poor representation of Trek in my perspective on numerous occasions and messed things up rather good so the contemporary viewer would feel 'closer' to it all.
But that of course is just my personal opinion.

Anyway ... even higher ranking officers are in charge of sometimes doing 'menial' work like cleaning out the exhaust vents if no one else is available or simply because the captain feels they earned it (reminds me of an episode of Voyager in which Paris was bored on the bridge and Janeway offered to him manual work of cleaning out some plasma vents).
Neelix as a result of his lying to the crew and getting involved with a drug dealer on board an alien station betrayed the captain's trust ... she told him he is to scrub the exhaust manifolds for the next 2 weeks if I'm not mistaken.
Well, putting him in the brig would be no good, and Neelix was ready and willing to do that if it would help regain the captains trust in a smaller fashion.
Besides, it's not like he would entirely get away with it.
Manual labor despite high automation would still exist even in Trek.
And people who are specialized in their fields would do it for free if society in which they live in provided them with means of living a comfortable life.
Besides, they could feel in a fashion obligated to give something back to society that treats them well, even though it's not mandatory.

As for Picard being treated as a tool in 'Tapestry'.
For one thing, I would hardly call that treating him a tool.
He was a Liutenant who from his peers perspective in the alternate time-line showed 0 inclination for advancement in position and not taking risks.
No one treated him as a tool and everyone respected his rank if anything.
He just wasn't saw as a candidate for a command position due to his altered history.

I would hardly call treating junior officers as tools is a justified term.
They are junior officers and need training/experience plus learning the chain of command.
They are still all equal as humans, just not in rank (which doesn't mean they treat them like dirt).
They got into that line of work knowing fully on what it entailed, plus they were aware that they won't be working in desired positions from the get go.
In several episodes for example it was stated if people wanted to do a certain line of work, then working as a crewman on a starship (or a similar position) for a time was mandatory.
Certain requirements are needed even in real life if a person wants to do a specific line of work.
Nothing strange about it.

Jellico was assigned captain of the Enterprise D at one occasion and he was practically despised by the crew as a result of his own way of running a ship, but they still respected his rank.

Barclay was treated as a tool ?
Excuse me, but have you guys actually SEEN TNG in the first place ?
His rank had 0 to do with it.
It was his behavior that separated him from the rest of the crew initially and took him some time/counseling sessions to gain more self-confidence.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Turtletrekker said:

Babaganoosh said:
So these duplicators were invented, and you want to know what happened as a result? Society became a brutal slave system. Those who had the 'duplicators' were the masters/overlords over those who didn't have them.

Except that replicators are common household items. There isn't anybody who wants a replicator who doesn't have one.

How do we know? We've never seen anyone try and fail to get one. Maybe you have to have a job of some kind to get a replicator. We just don't know.

OTOH, there are people who don't want replicators, as well. So if the replicator is the magical cure-all for society's ills...how could they benefit?

I still gotta go with the opinion that Picard just like to bullshit anyone from the 20th/21st centuries he happened to run into. He did it with those three people in "The Neutral Zone", and he did it with Lily in ST:FC. He may not have been outright lying, but he was definitely slanting the truth.

I did get one thing, though, he said that the acquisition of wealth is "no longer a driving force". He didn't say it didn't exist.

 

[Deks]

I very much doubt Picard is lying or is embellishing the words.
If anything, yes he may be presenting the facts about his society in a bit arrogant fashion, but I wouldn't call him a liar.

As for the acquisition of wealth not being a driving force for humanity and meaning that for humans in the future it doesn't exist ...
Why not ?
We are talking about a future in which humanity underwent a radical change before joining the interstellar community.
According to Enterprise, they have been confined by Vulcans to not explore the outer space for nearly 100 years.
In the first 50 years humanity eliminated diseases, poverty and what not.
The Vulcans managed to keep them another 4 decades from exploration until humans decided to ignore them and just DO IT.

 

[The Squire of Gothos]

UnknownSample said:In Trek it's a sort of technologically-created socialism

They don't get paid, but then they don't get cancer either, its a bitch eh?

 

[Deimos Anomaly]

Deks said:
I very much doubt Picard is lying or is embellishing the words.
If anything, yes he may be presenting the facts about his society in a bit arrogant fashion, but I wouldn't call him a liar.

As for the acquisition of wealth not being a driving force for humanity and meaning that for humans in the future it doesn't exist ...
Why not ?
We are talking about a future in which humanity underwent a radical change before joining the interstellar community.
According to Enterprise, they have been confined by Vulcans to not explore the outer space for nearly 100 years.
In the first 50 years humanity eliminated diseases, poverty and what not.
The Vulcans managed to keep them another 4 decades from exploration until humans decided to ignore them and just DO IT.

Aye, that was part of the idea that was in my head when I posted the "What if FC happened now" thread.

A non-unified earth, with the USA, and no doubt soon after Russia, China etc (by means of espionage or whatever) launching their own warp ships and beginning to explore the MW... with none of that ST UFP social baggage.

Hmm I wonder if it would be the USAF or USN that would get to operate the ships. But that's a debate best kept for that thread I guess.

 

[Orintho]

Deks said:
OK ... let's recap.

Humans in the 24th century as Picard described them do not pursue material aspects as contemporary humans do.

Since humanity evolved in those aspects, money non existing, I would say that people really have a trade system and everyone shares resources for the 'greater good of society'.

Jobs for example are readily available to everyone, there is no shortage of food, energy and what not thanks to new power generation systems and replicators.

People also don't have to work if they don't want to, but most would just go stir crazy most of the time from doing nothing as they would get into a routine, and heck everyone start to work sooner or later.

I'm guessing education is mandatory, and after that they are free to go/do whatever they want.

Also keep under consideration that what you perceive today as unrealistic for Trek and it's economy, that Trek IS set in the future.
Introductions of new technologies and the will to work together, setting aside prejudice and what not can mean a lot.

They only use currency when dealing with aliens such as Quark for example or races who still use currency.

Are we certain they get credits ?
I doubt it.

I'm guessing the Feds have a 'ration distribution' system.
Like replicator rations.
Everyone are entitled to a certain amount of rations for things like replicator use and whatnot.

If this is how the Federation works - forget the threats of the Borg, the Dominion, the Romulans. The capitalistic Ferengi would pwn the UFP.

 

[The Squire of Gothos]

Orintho said:The capitalistic Ferengi would pwn the UFP

How?

 

[OmarB]

It's the one aspect of the ST universe I never got on with. Being the staunch NY Capitalist I am, just the idea of not being given a paycheck for what I do is monstrous. Though there's a pretty nice band aide on the problem with the replicators.

In dealing with societies outside of earth we do see that they do trade and in many cases it's not a barter but an actual money purchase so they do maintain some capitalist ideals while still keeping a it at arm's length.

The Ferengis are cast as humans obsessed with money and in the ST universe it's portrayed as comical, dishonest. As if money were the root of human baseness. Money is a tool for trade, measure for measure, those who would cast money as evil are looking more at the nature of corrupt men.

 

[John Picard]

Not everyone uses replicators (which require energy). Chief O'Brien recounted to Keiko that his mother *hated* replicators and refused to eat replicated food as she preferred to cook organic material. Keiko was "shocked and amazed" that O'Brien's mother "actually handled dead flesh".

Also remember early in Voyager that Captain Janeway ordered the crew on holodeck rations so that badly needed energy was diverted to all critical systems, including diverting energy away from replicators, hence Neelixes "handiness" in the mess hall. Unfortunately, that idea slowly faded as Paris et al spent a lot of time screwing around on the holodeck.

 

[Deks]

Actually, the problem with money in the real world for example is that people complain how there isn't enough money to fund research into numerous scientific projects and for expeditions into space.

If large amounts of money are needed to buy materials/technology needed for research and the government is short on it, then the said research will be delayed inevitably.
It's not like the resources for research are not present (besides we can make numerous things with contemporary technologies).
The problem is that there isn't enough money for funding the research.

In the Federation resources and technologyes are shared among 150 different species, and even prior to the Federation when humanity had a singular government (post WW3) so resources and technologies between cities would be shared as well.

It's quite simple really.
And if you find it hard to buy that humans would never give up money ... well check again because that's exactly what happened in Trek and money itself demonstrated how it can hinder humanities progress.

If resources are available (and they are) and money is the only obstacle, then eliminate money, return to the basic trade system by deciding you will share technology and information among each other and problem solved.
Each side gets something in return, money is no longer needed (or a factor), plus accomplishing things becomes easier if you have a government body that cares about the people, and if people themselves are willing to help each other.
In Trek they obviously do and such a government body must have been created that post WW3 that actually worked (Which wouldn't have been possible without humanity consenting to such a change).

 

[Deks]

John_Picard said:
Not everyone uses replicators (which require energy). Chief O'Brien recounted to Keiko that his mother *hated* replicators and refused to eat replicated food as she preferred to cook organic material. Keiko was "shocked and amazed" that O'Brien's mother "actually handled dead flesh".

Also remember early in Voyager that Captain Janeway ordered the crew on holodeck rations so that badly needed energy was diverted to all critical systems, including diverting energy away from replicators, hence Neelixes "handiness" in the mess hall. Unfortunately, that idea slowly faded as Paris et al spent a lot of time screwing around on the holodeck.

Keep in mind though that when planet based, replicator and transporters have an unlimited power supply and as such are not a problem to handle, whereas ships rely on warp cores that will need refilling every several years and have a limited supply of energy.

Voyager had problems because it was far away from the nearest star base so the crew had to use replicators sparingly since they do require plenty of energy, and lets not forget that Voyager was trying to find alternative sources of energy but didn't find them on a regular basis which in turn forced them to devise a way to reduce power consumption of replicators and other ship systems (which took time).

 

[Hofner]

Colonel Green said:

Necronomicon said:

Deks said:

And the line that no one would work for nothing ...
That is a load of nonsense.
Even today, there are people who do voluntary work for example.

I agree. Money is important in terms of survival, but there are millions of people who do jobs because they love them, not because of how much they're paid.

PLEASE! HELP ME MEET THESE PEOPLE! PLEASE!!!!

Well, this isn't exactly a case of someone who works for the "betterment of humanity" and I wouldn't say this is representative of "millions of people" but...

I'm one of those who doesn't buy this moneyless society stuff but I do know someone who works because he wants to and likes it and not for the money.

My uncle, my dad's oldest brother, is quite a neat guy. He was in the Navy during WW2 and among other things, the Japanese sank the ship he was on in 1942 but luckily he was one of the survivors. He retired when he was 65 but after some years of nothing to do he was bored out of his skull so he got a full-time job as a greeter at his local Wal-Mart. He also does menial jobs like stocking shelves, sweeping the floor and so on.

He doesn't get paid much but he doesn't care and he doesn't even need it. His retirement money is enough for his needs. Although he certainly isn't going to refuse whatever pay they give him. I think he gives some to charity but he's just going to leave the rest for his daughter.

He chose the greeter job because he likes meeting people. He's a charming old man and people always like him. He is now 88 years old and still works that full-time job today.

I know this may be very uncommon but yeah, I know someone who works because he likes it and not for the money. Sorry to ramble on and on about my uncle but I'm very proud of him.

Robert

 

[Orintho]

The Squire of Gothos said:

Orintho said:The capitalistic Ferengi would pwn the UFP

How?

Because along with interstellar travel would come interstellar trade. Since the Trekverse applies human examples onto its culture, let's look at the human examples. Who did better economically - The capitalistic US or the ccommunist USSR?

 

[Delta1]

There might be millions of people who do the jobs they love for free, but there are also millions of jobs no one loves that must be done. How do get people to do these jobs? Force them? Offer them compensation? Or just hope that out of the trillions of sentients in the Federation there's at least one out there who wants to fill the janitor position you've got open, and will do so just to better himself and the rest of society?

As for the ostensible "simplicity" of large-scale sharing of resources, there is nothing simple at all about sharing. Anyone who grew up with a sibling knows this--you have to live in a command economy, with resource distribution directives coming down from Mom.

Something like the Federation could work if the majority of the population was content with a comparatively meager standard of living, while the productive class worked to support them. The productive class could work for compensation, or they might do it for self-actualization. But if the productive class grew too small, members of the consumer class would have to be drafted into maintaining their society--harvesting energy, repairing replicators, national defense, etc.

Resources are scarce, always have been, always will be. Money is an efficient way of valuing and moving resources. If it didn't exist, someone would have to invent it. (As the DS9 writers did when they injected gold-pressed latinum into every trade.)