Pegasus and TATV

[Bad Thoughts]

An "anything goes" attitude is hardly the reason we got TaTV featuring the overweight "Imzadi" twins. As part of their quest for high ratings for the episode and disregard for Ent fans and cast, the Beebs chose TNG characters ...

Let us not be so dismissive over Jonathan Frakes' many accomplishements within the STAR TREK franchise. First and foremost, he's a solid performer. Second, he's directed quite a bit of STAR TREK, including the biggest Box Office Hit, up until that time: FIRST CONTACT. Without a doubt, one of this franchises best movies. So far, so good. And lastly, ENTERPRISE was not his first guest appearance on another series other than The Next Generation. These episodes on DS9 & VOY saw their ratings go Sky High - thanks, specifically, to Frakes' participation! In fact, it could be argued that, because of this "precedent," Frakes was actually overdue for an appearance on an episode of your precious ENTERPRISE.

The Voyager appearance was a well hyped episode for two reasons: John de Lancie and assisted suicide. Indeed, he and Mulgrew were both on the cover of TV Guide. Frakes' appearance may not have been part of the promotion, but it certainly was a minor part, if any.

 

[2takesfrakes]

It made more sense emphasizing Q in promotionals, as he was likely to have a regular and/or recurring role in VOY. I mean, Riker couldn't, of course, as he was in the command structure of The Next Generation. And besides, as I recall, Q did not, could not, appear on his own when he visited Deep Space Nine. Vash was required to help mitigate his presense, in the first place, and to further explain to the uninitiated who Q was and what he'd been up to. Agan, Q could not just show up on his own without TNG propping him up, for his first appearance on VOY. Cue Jonathan Frakes and his Gets Ratings persona & Rock Solid performance.

 

[Shat Happens]

Frakes or no Frakes, Sirtis or no Sirtis, throughout all Star Trek there are some episodes that just don't take off. This is one of them.

 

[gblews]

It didn't matter that tying Ent to TNG made no sense, and thus the shoehorning of Pegusus, because the focus was on ratings and NOT giving the loyal Ent fans a great final episode.

Right out of the pen, ENTERPRISE had been presented without the STAR TREK moniker, whilst utilizing practically every popular element of it. The temerity of this decision did not go unnoticed or unappreciated by fans and wisely, ENT applied the label in response to it. Like it, or lump it, this series' deinal of its STAR TREKian ties, origins and connections demanded a tie-in of some sort, eventually. Again, TATV was long over-due, for that very reason ... so let's not hear talk of any supposed "disregard of ENT fans," here, because of TNG's involvement.

It sounds a bit like you're saying that Ent and by extension, it's fans, deserved the debacle that was TaTV. The fans had nothing to do with dropping the Star Trek name from the title. That was all UPN and the Beebs.

No one, and I mean NO ONE (least of all Ent fans), deserved TaTV and it's multitude of negative elements.

 

[2takesfrakes]

As to what the fans "deserve," I don't friggin' know what they deserve. I just worry about my own happiness. But thank Providence "The Powers That Be" don't pay the fans any mind, because I sure as hell don't deserve what they'd want for the next series. That's for damn sure. TATV is hated by a very vocal group of TREKKIES and I get that. I've read their bellyaching, before. I just don't share it. Would I have made TATV a crossover episode of any kind? No. Would I have tied up all of the loose ends with a nice, big bow? Yes. But we got what we got and it is what it is. I don't have a problem with that, really.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

It didn't matter that tying Ent to TNG made no sense, and thus the shoehorning of Pegusus, because the focus was on ratings and NOT giving the loyal Ent fans a great final episode.

Right out of the pen, ENTERPRISE had been presented without the STAR TREK moniker, whilst utilizing practically every popular element of it. The temerity of this decision did not go unnoticed or unappreciated by fans and wisely, ENT applied the label in response to it. Like it, or lump it, this series' deinal of its STAR TREKian ties, origins and connections demanded a tie-in of some sort, eventually. Again, TATV was long over-due, for that very reason ... so let's not hear talk of any supposed "disregard of ENT fans," here, because of TNG's involvement.

It sounds a bit like you're saying that Ent and by extension, it's fans, deserved the debacle that was TaTV. The fans had nothing to do with dropping the Star Trek name from the title. That was all UPN and the Beebs.

No one, and I mean NO ONE (least of all Ent fans), deserved TaTV and it's multitude of negative elements.

2takes you seem to think that TATV fixed something. ENT sold out by not having the words Star Trek in it for two seasons and TATV fixed this 2 season gap in Star Trekkiness.

As to ENT denying Star Trek ties, jesus.. most people complain it was boring because the first two seasons just retread Star Trek of the past and did nothing new and that it was fanwanky because the fourth season was filled with Star Trek references.

ENT was totally Star Trek, filled to the brim with Star Trek, having the words there or not there made no difference at all.

The most broken thing about ENT was TATV.

 

[2takesfrakes]

2takes you seem to think that TATV fixed something.

[...SNIP!]

The most broken thing about ENT was TATV.

Yes, dear.

>>SNORT!!!<<

 

[Robert Comsol]

And I'm really happy that Riker & Troi resolved a deeper, personal crisis going on in their timeline.

Which one would that be, please?

"Captain Picard, I went to the holodeck to make up my mind () whether to come clean or not, but now I've just gotten direct orders from Admiral Pressman not to discuss the issue with my captain"

The only reason he mentions the Pegasus' cloaking device later on is because there is no other way to get out of the asteroid - could be interpreted as a very opportunistic move in order to save the ship and crew, especially after Picard's straightforward warning:

"And I will just have to trust that you will not let Pressman put this ship at unnecessary risk. And if I find that that trust has been misplaced, then I will have to re-evaluate the command structure of this ship."

In other words, TATV retroactively makes Riker look like a guy who is just trying to save his ass.



Bob

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

2takes you seem to think that TATV fixed something.

[...SNIP!]

The most broken thing about ENT was TATV.

Yes, dear.

>>SNORT!!!<<

Exactly what does this contribute to the discussion? I replied to your post about TATV seemingly being brought in because ENT failed to be Trek enough.

 

[TheSubCommander]

I agree that Pegasus was a very very bad choice. That episode was very forgettable, and to me, if by the 7th season, Riker can't figure out he needs to trust Picard and tell him everything his former Captain, now crooked Admiral were up to from the beginning, then Riker should have been demoted at the end of that episode. It was just so out of character for Riker, and thought it was just bad writing all around. TATV just seems to pile on more bad writing on top of that, while at the same time disrespects the entire Enterprise cast!

Personally, I didn't like the holodeck/Riker finding himself angle, at all. Especially for a series finale. It totally minimized the Enterprise characters. I see Terra Prime as the actual finale.

That said, if they just HAD TO HAVE Riker and Troi shoe-horned in, I am also of the opinion it should have been done post-Nemesis. Especially since Trip dies in TATV, what would have been wrong with showing Riker and Troi, just before the Titan was supposed to host some sort of treaty singing with the Romulans, while also still trying to deal with Data's death and realizing how his sacrifice was for the greater good of the ship and crew?

I could see a parallel drawn between Trip dying and saving the NX-01 Enterprise so that Archer would go on to make his speech at the newly formed UFP (as depicted), and Riker and Troi dealing with Data's death, and realizing without Data's sacrifice in saving the Enterprise-E (and Riker and Troi), the treaty between the Feds and Romulans wouldn't be happening.

I don't know, maybe that idea sucks, but to me, it makes more sense than re-treading Pegasus, which I thought was a pretty forgettable episode.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Why did the conflict need to be focused on Riker? If there was something unresolved from Nemesis, it was the mental rape of Troi. It might have made more sense to draw comparisons to TPol and Trip's problems, and might have had more emotional impact.

 

[Robert Comsol]

I don't know, maybe that idea sucks, but to me, it makes more sense than re-treading Pegasus, which I thought was a pretty forgettable episode.

I thought "Pegasus" had a good solid theme, i.e. how long do you follow orders that are probably illegal and when is the moment to break these? Admittedly, the conclusion wasn't the best of possible choices (Riker introducing Picard to an alternative when it seemed there wasn't one), but for me it was still entertaining to see Riker's reactions to Pressman first and understanding these watching the episode a second time.

I think it was one of better episodes of TNG's Season Seven (although there may have not been that many better episodes in this particular season ).

Bob

 

[2takesfrakes]

2takes you seem to think that TATV fixed something. ENT sold out by not having the words Star Trek in it for two seasons and TATV fixed this 2 season gap in Star Trekkiness.

... Agreed! ENTERPRISE did sell out, by trying to attract those turned-off by the "STAR TREK" brand by not including that label, in its title for the first couple seasons.

As to ENT denying Star Trek ties ... most people complain it was boring because the first two seasons just retread Star Trek of the past and did nothing new and that it was fanwanky because the fourth season was filled with Star Trek references.

"Denying ties," again, was referencing the STAR TREKLESS ENT titles, only. I wasn't referring to actual content, per se.

ENT was totally Star Trek, filled to the brim with Star Trek, having the words there or not there made no difference at all.

Right out of the pen, ENTERPRISE had been presented without the STAR TREK moniker, whilst utilizing practically every popular element of (STAR TREK).

^ See ... no argument, there.

The most broken thing about ENT was TATV.

A sentiment you share with many others - yes, indeed. Yes, indeed! Well ... I guess that's about it.

So, with that, I now leave this discussion in the capable hands of you Good People. So many other, interestesting threads, you know ... !

 

[TheSubCommander]

I don't know, maybe that idea sucks, but to me, it makes more sense than re-treading Pegasus, which I thought was a pretty forgettable episode.

I thought "Pegasus" had a good solid theme, i.e. how long do you follow orders that are probably illegal and when is the moment to break these? Admittedly, the conclusion wasn't the best of possible choices (Riker introducing Picard to an alternative when it seemed there wasn't one), but for me it was still entertaining to see Riker's reactions to Pressman first and understanding these watching the episode a second time.



I think it was one of better episodes of TNG's Season Seven (although there may have not been that many better episodes in this particular season ).

Bob

Eh, the big problem I have with that episode is when it takes place. This episode, to me, had Riker acting a little out of character. Had it been season 1,2, or even 3, when Riker is still less seasoned as a first officer on the Enterprise, maybe it would have worked a lot better for me. But by season 7, Riker practically should be operating as almost a co-captain by that point (He had been captain during BOBW, and acting as one during other emergencies). I find it hard to believe he has trouble deciding on whether he should remain loyal to Pressman or go to Picard and do the right thing. Sure he ultimately made the right choice, but he sure had to deliberate on that, and was reprimanded in the process. Then, TATV further muddies that up with the holodeck bit.

Why did the conflict need to be focused on Riker? If there was something unresolved from Nemesis, it was the mental rape of Troi. It might have made more sense to draw comparisons to TPol and Trip's problems, and might have had more emotional impact.

That is not a bad idea, either.
​

 

[Silvercrest]

This might be overkill, but if you want a sendoff to the entire franchise —
Riker is on a holodeck. Whether it's aboard the Titan or someplace else is irrelevant. He's putting together a historical re-enactment of some event from Archer's Enterprise. We see a scene or two from his treatment (featuring the Enterprise cast), but he knows he's not getting the details right. He puts in a call to some history buffs he knows: Lt. Tom Paris and Dr. Julian Bashir. If possible, a special appearance by a very old TOS cast member, preferably Sulu or Uhura. We see each of their versions of the event, different each time and none of them quite right.

In the last act of the show, they are interrupted by someone who was called in as an authority on the subject: An extremely old T'Pol, saying, "This is what really happened." You get to see one more version of the scene, but this time you know it's the real characters and events you're watching. Cut to the montage of the various Enterprises. The End.

Any opinions?

 

[jespah]

Ah, Star Trek: Rashomon.

 

[TheSubCommander]

This might be overkill, but if you want a sendoff to the entire franchise —
Riker is on a holodeck. Whether it's aboard the Titan or someplace else is irrelevant. He's putting together a historical re-enactment of some event from Archer's Enterprise. We see a scene or two from his treatment (featuring the Enterprise cast), but he knows he's not getting the details right. He puts in a call to some history buffs he knows: Lt. Tom Paris and Dr. Julian Bashir. If possible, a special appearance by a very old TOS cast member, preferably Sulu or Uhura. We see each of their versions of the event, different each time and none of them quite right.

In the last act of the show, they are interrupted by someone who was called in as an authority on the subject: An extremely old T'Pol, saying, "This is what really happened." You get to see one more version of the scene, but this time you know it's the real characters and events you're watching. Cut to the montage of the various Enterprises. The End.

Any opinions?

Sounds a little like the season 4 finale of Babylon 5. I think it would have been nice to do something like that.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Did people actually care about the title being left out of the first two seasons? I didn't. I might not have even noticed

I mean.. Enterprise. Clearly this is Star Trek.

 

[Robert Comsol]

I find it hard to believe he has trouble deciding on whether he should remain loyal to Pressman or go to Picard and do the right thing. Sure he ultimately made the right choice, but he sure had to deliberate on that, and was reprimanded in the process. Then, TATV further muddies that up with the holodeck bit.

I see your point. Indeed, by TNG Season Seven one could have expected Riker to have it within himself to make the right decision. I always thought this was a graphic illustration / explanation that maybe he wasn't yet fully ready for the big chair. But Riker in need of some kind of history lesson was so out of character, that this can't possibly be taken seriously (add to this that he never came clean in any way TATV suggested he would ).

Bob

 

[Mario de Monti]

Did people actually care about the title being left out of the first two seasons? I didn't. I might not have even noticed

I mean.. Enterprise. Clearly this is Star Trek.

Definitely. I actually liked that it was just Enterprise and it seemded as if TPTB somehow gave in to public / fan demand for the third season and added the Star Trek to the title. That and the stupid jazzing-up of the main title song are two things I still can´t get by.