PC to Mac

[John Picard]

Here's an idea, I will not call Macs crap after only using them a few times if Mac users will stop calling Vista crap after admitting to not using it. Deal?

How about Vista users stop implying that MS is innovative? I've finally learned that everything MS "develops" is already old-school for Mac people by almost 2 years.

 

[TheGodBen]

How about Vista users stop implying that MS is innovative? I've finally learned that everything MS "develops" is already old-school for Mac people by almost 2 years.

Firstly, I never said Vista was innovative. Secondly, I've rarely seen anyone who doesn't work for MS make that claim because Vista is an improvement which built upon XP and didn't try to reinvent the wheel. Thirdly, the claim that Apple are the innovative ones and that MS steals from them is utterly facetious. There is a history of both Apple and MS copying the ideas of one another and from others. In fact, it is well know that the first Mac GUI was based on the Xerox Alto. Do you complain about that?

 

[John Picard]

How about Vista users stop implying that MS is innovative? I've finally learned that everything MS "develops" is already old-school for Mac people by almost 2 years.

Firstly, I never said Vista was innovative. Secondly, I've rarely seen anyone who doesn't work for MS make that claim because Vista is an improvement which built upon XP and didn't try to reinvent the wheel. Thirdly, the claim that Apple are the innovative ones and that MS steals from them is utterly facetious. There is a history of both Apple and MS copying the ideas of one another and from others. In fact, it is well know that the first Mac GUI was based on the Xerox Alto. Do you complain about that?

I know full well that Mac got the GUI from the Xerox dusty parts bin. And no, I wasn't saying you directly said Vista is innovative. I was an anti-Mac person for years until I got fed up with always dealing with configuration BS and spending more time and effort maintaining my PC that using it. It's the MS crowd in general that think each MS O/S is "innovative".

 

[TheGodBen]

It's the MS crowd in general that think each MS O/S is "innovative".

Don't know where you got that idea, like I said earlier nobody claims that Vista is all that innovative, and nobody is really saying it about Windows 7. The most radical change in the new Windows is the taskbar, and even MS are joking about how this is similar to what they had back in Windows 1. They have done some things in the kernel that nobody notices and they gave the interface a makeover but even MS is saying that Seven is pretty much Vista with a few refinements.

 

[Shaw]

I'm a Windows and Linux guy...

Thanks for that! I need a good laugh today.

The most radical change in the new Windows is the taskbar, and even MS are joking about how this is similar to what they had back in Windows 1.

Ever use Windows 1.0?

How about 2.0? Or 3.x? Or NT 3.x? What about OS/2?

There is a history of both Apple and MS copying the ideas of one another...

Examples of Apple copying Microsoft please.

 

[TheGodBen]

I'm a Windows and Linux guy...

Thanks for that! I need a good laugh today.

Nice to meet you too.

Ever use Windows 1.0?

How about 2.0? Or 3.x? Or NT 3.x? What about OS/2?

Yes. I have been using Windows since 3.1, and I worked on virtual machine's of all the different early versions of Windows in college. Have you used them?

Examples of Apple copying Microsoft please.

Lets see, there's the dock, quick user switching, many of the features in outlook and office in general. I believe that a built-in web browser was something MS had before Apple as well, though I'm not certain about that at all.

 

[Amaris]

Yes. I have been using Windows since 3.1, and I worked on virtual machine's of all the different early versions of Windows in college. Have you used them?

I know I have, and I've been working on these systems for a long time, particularly compared to how old I am. I know them like the back of my hand. I'm also a Mac user.

Lets see, there's the dock, quick user switching, many of the features in outlook and office in general. I believe that a built-in web browser was something MS had before Apple as well, though I'm not certain about that at all.

Look at the similarities of what Microsoft produces and what Apple produces. In general, Microsoft is about 5-10 years behind Apple in the GUI design. It's only recently that Microsoft has been taking better and faster notes. I say this as someone who has used Windows systems his whole life.

Microsoft Windows 95 had a built in web browser, yes, and I believe it was the first OS to have one built in. Of course, then Microsoft integrated it into their OS a few years later to avoid anti-trust sanctions by the U.S. government. Brilliant move from every perspective but a programming one. It brought the inherent instability of the IE browser into a primary function of the kernel. This meant far more crashes and easier access for virii to reach the whole system in a short amount of time. If you want to list that as an accomplishment, that's fine.

The general rule is that both companies adapt where necessary. Apple, if it must, tries to innovate new ideas. Microsoft just grabs either public domain software and rebrands it as Microsoft, or watches Apple and then makes a move, adding their own touch. Now, both companies do this, the question is how often. I would say over the years, that Apple has created far more and borrowed less than Microsoft who innovates less and borrows more.

Again, I use a Mac, but I've been a Windows guy since 3.0.
Hell, right now I'm typing this on a Mac, but if I want to use XP, all I have to do is open my virtualbox and I'm using XP, without rebooting, without slowing down, use it for what I need, jump back out and it only takes a few seconds. I have OS X, and I have Windows XP. In some areas, XP shines. In others, it's OS X. They both do their jobs, but if you want to get into who copies what, you better be willing to admit Microsoft modus operandi is to follow and then adapt, not innovate and set the standard.

J.

 

[Shaw]

Yes. I have been using Windows since 3.1, and I worked on virtual machine's of all the different early versions of Windows in college. Have you used them?

Yes... I used to service and administer Windows systems and dropped them from my business shortly after the release of Windows XP. I got my MCSE certification for Windows NT 4 (Workstation and Server), Windows 95 and Windows 98. I have the actual media for the following:

• Windows 1.0
• Windows 2.0
• Windows 3.0
• Windows 3.11 for Workgroups
• Windows 95
• Windows 98SE
• Windows ME
• Windows NT 3.1 Workstation
• Windows NT 3.51 Workstation
• Windows NT 4.0 Workstation and Server
• Windows 2000 Professional

To round out my background in Windows NT I also have:

• OS/2 2.0
• OS/2 Warp 3.0
• OS/2 Warp 4.0

It was also important for me to be an expert in Windows NT as I also supported OpenStep Enterprise, WebObjects, Enterprise Objects and Yellow Box. If you are curious as to what those looked like on Windows, might I suggest looking at screen shots of my installations here, here and here.

Lets see, there's the dock,

Which has been a feature of NEXTSTEP since 1988, Windows didn't have anything like it that I know of. In fact I knew a NeXT developer that wrote an OpenStep runtime application to get her Windows system a Dock.

If you would like to see NeXT's version of the Dock (or NeXT operating systems in general) I've put up screen shots here, here and here.

quick user switching,

Funny, I seem to recall this as part of some Unix systems before Microsoft included it.

many of the features in outlook and office in general.

Like?

Apple's Mail is based on NeXT's Mail and has a long lineage going back to the first version of NEXTSTEP... which predates Outlook. Office isn't part of the OS, but Microsoft's word was based on Apple's original MacWrite application. And one shouldn't forget that Excel was originally a Mac app, and it was a licensing of elements of the Mac's OS that led to Windows 1.0 which was specifically designed to let DOS run GUI based apps like Excel.

But what app is copying Office? With all your Mac experience you should be able to be more specific.

I believe that a built-in web browser was something MS had before Apple as well, though I'm not certain about that at all.

Safari isn't built in, it comes with Mac OS X and provides WebCore services to other applications if they would like to use it.

It is nothing like the illegal tying of IE that Microsoft first did with Windows 98. Maybe you should read the DoJ's case files on Microsoft. Quite informative.

As I doubt that you've done anything more than visit other operating systems (including Linux), have you ever become an expert on a non-Windows platform? That is, could you give up Windows 100% today and use something else?

I can work as effectively in IRIX, Solaris, NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP, Rhapsody and Mac OS 8/9 as I can in Mac OS X... but it was important to me that I be able to move around like that. And had Microsoft not threatened to sue one of my clients back in 2002, I might still be willing to use their software today. But my home is now a Microsoft free zone! I boxed up all that software (even the Mac and Solaris versions of some of it) and put it in storage. But I wouldn't think getting back up to speed would be that difficult.

So what real experience do you have out side of Windows? See, I really hate those people who install some OS and call themselves experts on it but never actually learn anything about it. I bet you did that with both Linux and Macs. Took a look and walked away.

Let me give you a little advice... you want to learn an OS, make it your only OS for a month! Figure out how to get everything done that you normally would do. I see tons of looky-loo techies installing Rhapsody without ever having actually used it. They know nothing about it, but they got it running and took some screen shots. That's not knowing a platform.

You obviously don't know Macs (or you wouldn't have made the Dock comment), so maybe you should stay in Windows threads where you at least have half a chance of knowing something.

 

[TheGodBen]

I have OS X, and I have Windows XP. In some areas, XP shines. In others, it's OS X. They both do their jobs, but if you want to get into who copies what, you better be willing to admit Microsoft modus operandi is to follow and then adapt, not innovate and set the standard.

I am fully willing to admit that. Not once have I claimed otherwise.

You obviously don't know Macs (or you wouldn't have made the Dock comment), so maybe you should stay in Windows threads where you at least have half a chance of knowing something.

I never claimed to know much about Macs, and I absolutely never claimed to use them extensively. My cumulative use of them only amounts to hours and not days, weeks or months. I don't believe I said anything in this thread about Macs being bad in any way. I did not try to dissuade the OP from purchasing a Mac.

I posted in this thread because I saw people in here bad-mouthing Vista while admitting to never having even used it so I thought that maybe I should come in here and try to make them stop. Is this the sort of behaviour you support, insulting something you've never tried? The fact that you laughed at me because I use both Windows and Linux suggests that you might be such a person, but I would hope otherwise.

 

[Amaris]

I have OS X, and I have Windows XP. In some areas, XP shines. In others, it's OS X. They both do their jobs, but if you want to get into who copies what, you better be willing to admit Microsoft modus operandi is to follow and then adapt, not innovate and set the standard.

I am fully willing to admit that. Not once have I claimed otherwise.

Works for me, and I'll give a little ground too and say Macs are geared toward the trendy, upscale crowd, but it ends up working for a lot more people than that. Plus, back in the day, Dell did the same thing.

J.

 

[Chess Piece Face]

I have OS X, and I have Windows XP. In some areas, XP shines. In others, it's OS X. They both do their jobs, but if you want to get into who copies what, you better be willing to admit Microsoft modus operandi is to follow and then adapt, not innovate and set the standard.

I am fully willing to admit that. Not once have I claimed otherwise.

Works for me, and I'll give a little ground too and say Macs are geared toward the trendy, upscale crowd, but it ends up working for a lot more people than that. Plus, back in the day, Dell did the same thing.

J.

I'll agree that they are geared toward the upscale crowd in one facet only - that they do not offer OSX on a 300 dollar computer. Otherwise, the fact that the operating system is designed to be clean and clutter free and USER oriented, not operating system oriented, is not a point that I will let fall into the "apple is just trendy" category. Not that you were doing this, but a lot of people online act like these are negatives about apple when they are in fact not only positives, they are common sense and they are something windows sorely lacks.

Shaw, your posts are always informative and they tend to remind me of great things about Apple that I already knew but I never seem to remember in order to articulate them in discussions like this. I was fully aware of the Next dock, and user switching in Unix but I wouldn't have remembered them to counter those points. Great job.

 

[Candlelight]

I went to Mac last year using my work MacBook Pro, and I have to stay I'm still a Windows man. I like Mac but after 29 years of Windows and 1 year of Mac I'm still not liking the Mac interface. You close the red dot and that should shut down the program, but no, you have to go up and close it a second time from the menu. Silly!

That said, I'm running virtual machines on the Mac, with XP, Windows 98 and the beta copy of Windows 7, plus Linux Ubuntu 8.10, so I have the best of all worlds.

I completely missed out on Vista and really like Win7. I'm not jadded by the whole Mac/Windows war. Kind of on the fence.

Call me Switzerland!

 

[Shaw]

I went to Mac last year using my work MacBook Pro, and I have to stay I'm still a Windows man. I like Mac but after 29 years of Windows and 1 year of Mac I'm still not liking the Mac interface.

Just FYI... Windows hasn't been around for 29 years. Maybe this will help those of you having a hard time with the OS lineage of both the Mac and Windows platforms.

You close the red dot and that should shut down the program, but no, you have to go up and close it a second time from the menu. Silly!

That was a leftover failing of the fact that Windows was originally a shell rather than an OS. Windows applications were (and still pretty much are) forced to exist within a root (parent) window. In other words, the root window is the instance of the application.

This limitation didn't exist on other platforms (including Macs). On those systems windows represented either documents or pallets... all of which were free to be moved around. More importantly, the lack of a root window meant that the user could work between a number of applications because the other apps weren't blocked by the foreground application.

This fundamental difference is why drag-n-drop works so well on other platforms (like the Mac).

For example... I have an image browser called Curator from which I can drag-n-drop images into a page layout/web design program called Create. Similarly, I do most of my writing in TextEdit and can drag-n-drop blocks of text into Create. If any of these applications did the full screen parent window thing I wouldn't be able to work with drag-n-drop.

But to make sure you understand, this isn't just a Mac thing... this was most other major GUI based operating systems. To illustrate this here is a shot of my SGI Indy...

The applications being displayed are Photoshop (two windows, the about dialog and the pallets), Illustrator (one window) and Acrobat Reader (one window and the about dialog).

A rootless application environment is designed for people who multitask (use a number of applications to complete any given project). This environment isn't the best for everyone... secretaries, gamers and data entry people rarely need more than one application, and seeing anything beyond that one application is a distraction for them. And Windows is ideal for those types of people and I think that they should stay with Windows. Period.

You should never have switched to Macs... you should go back to Windows and stay there.

 

[Chess Piece Face]

You close the red dot and that should shut down the program, but no, you have to go up and close it a second time from the menu. Silly!

No, not silly at all. This is YOUR preconception from the way windows does things. Closing the dot on the window CLOSES THE WINDOW. That makes sense. That way you can have many windows but the program is only running once. This all makes sense.

Closing the window quitting the program is the backwards thought here.

 

[Amaris]

You close the red dot and that should shut down the program, but no, you have to go up and close it a second time from the menu. Silly!

No, not silly at all. This is YOUR preconception from the way windows does things. Closing the dot on the window CLOSES THE WINDOW. That makes sense. That way you can have many windows but the program is only running once. This all makes sense.

Closing the window quitting the program is the backwards thought here.

It took me about 2 days to get used to the idea of "close the window, program still runs". Once I got into the swing of it, it just makes sense.

J.

 

[Candlelight]

I like Mac but after 29 years of Windows and 1 year of Mac I'm still not liking the Mac interface.

Just FYI... Windows hasn't been around for 29 years.

FYI... I have.