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Part of the problem with the TNG movies is the characters are kept in stasis

Lance

Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
Allow me to explain what I mean ;)

The TOS movies, whatever their faults, recognized something about the move from TV to the big screen, and that is a need to go to new places with these old characters. TMP touches on it (despite alleging to take place within only two years of the end of TOS, despite being filmed a whole ten years later), but TWOK really runs with the idea that these are the same characters from the 79 original television episodes, but older, and therefore different. It revels in the opportunity to ask the questions, who is Admiral Kirk so many years later, how have all these characters changed? And the following movies all follow suit. The characters grow and progress. There's a seeming acknowledgement that movies have to approach these people in a way that episodic TV can not. All of them evolve in some way over those six movies, yes clearly the same crew we seen on TOS, but they are not the same in TUC as they were at the beginning of the movies. There have been events across those movies that have fundamentally changed some of them, and they're much more richly defined as a result. Heck, some of the things from the film series actually serve to retrospectively add flesh to the characters we saw in TOS, in a way that the episode-of-the-week, reset-button structure of the 1960s show never allowed.

TNG is a much more mixed bag.

I'd argue Generations actually starts out with some noble intentions here. The writers admit that after seven seasons of needing to keep some sacred cows intact, they enjoyed being able to kill them. Picard loses his family and is forced to face his own mortality. Data's quest for emotions comes to an end, and instead begins his quest to understand the emotions he's now got. Insurrection follows up with the resurrection of Riker/Troi that is finalized in Nemesis.

But otherwise it feels like these characters are essentially in stasis. In fact apart from Riker/Troi, several of them actually regress. The writers introduce "game changing" concepts like Data having emotions or the Enterprise being replaced, then do their damnedest to get back to the status quo as fast as possible. Data can turn his chip off and on in FC, it's no longer fused into his neural net and can be safely removed in INS, and one line in NEM makes it seem like he had never had emotions at all. Worf is kept strictly undeveloped for fear of contradicting anything about his arc on DS9. Picard becomes... well, he examines several important things about himself, but only on a movie by movie basis and by the end of NEM there is little to indicate he's any different than he was in "All Good Things". In fact, most of the characters had better growth on TV, and their growth stopped dead in the movies.

I'm at a loss why this should be. I'd like to think it's because Rick Berman and co only thought about each movie on its own and weren't so concerned about creating a progression between them, but the TOS movie makers basically admit they never had a grand plan, they worked on each movie as an individual piece but simply worked from an assumption that movie sequels by their nature don't exist in a vacuum and that events in one movie should be reflected in the next.

What do you all think? :)
 
Lance, I'm largely in agreement with you here.

In the past I've referred to Generations as "the last ambitious Star Trek film" (before the Abrams films, obviously) because the last film that's willing to break the toys and do something new. That's slightly unfair to Nemesis, which does break a few toys of its own (Data's death, Riker and Troi leaving). The two films in between, though, break no toys at all.

I've never known quite who to blame for this, as Michael Piller's book on the writing of Insurrection reveals that there were a lot of hands in the soup of the films of that period -- Berman had his ideas as the franchise's major domo, Stewart and Spiner had their ideas, Paramount had ideas of their own. I think everyone started from good intentions -- make the best Star Trek film they could -- but the final product was watered down and not as challenging as it could be. I have wondered if running the films alongside active television series led Berman to want to pull some punches with the films, and making the films contemporaneous with the television series meant that something like the Genesis trilogy wasn't possible if films were released two years apart.

When I look at the original series and compare it to the first six films, the films have a distinct identity from the series, and one can talk about the series and the films as distinct eras in Star Trek. The films look different, the characters are different, the storytelling is structured differently.

You can't do that with the NextGen films. Other than cosmetic differences (uniforms, the ships), those four films aren't different from the 178 hours on television. It's not a new era. There's no distinct identity. Really, they're just more hours, television-scale reunion movies on a feature film budget.

Personally, I never felt that First Contact and the films beyond ever justified their existence. Generations destroyed the status quo (or at least dealt it some serious body blows), and Berman could have used that to reinvent NextGen for the medium of film. Instead, he put the status quo back together as though nothing had happened, and those three films feel like footnotes.
 
Allow me to explain what I mean ;)

The TOS movies, whatever their faults, recognized something about the move from TV to the big screen, and that is a need to go to new places with these old characters. TMP touches on it (despite alleging to take place within only two years of the end of TOS, despite being filmed a whole ten years later), but TWOK really runs with the idea that these are the same characters from the 79 original television episodes, but older, and therefore different. It revels in the opportunity to ask the questions, who is Admiral Kirk so many years later, how have all these characters changed? And the following movies all follow suit. The characters grow and progress.

But with the TNG crew in their movies, especially the first two, they actually *aren't* that much older. And I don't think the movies after TWoK had more of the characters growing and changing, more like tending to reverse the changes. For example Chekov was a first officer in II, after that just comic relief, aside from one scene in V, and none of the characters further promoted until Sulu to captain in VI.

The TNG movies did have (of course due to the spin-off) Worf having left the Enterprise and its crew for another assignment (even though he likes coming back and is outright back in the crew by the last film), and they actually generally do acknowledge that from DS9 the universe seems a darker, more violent/conflict-wracked place. The Riker/Troi romance is significant though it could have been more and better.

There could have been more & better continuity in general; I would have liked if Insurrection had been more significant in that through it, including its end, and the next film Picard had become more enduringly skeptical of Starfleet and the Federation.


In fact, most of the characters had better growth on TV, and their growth stopped dead in the movies.

I'm at a loss why this should be. I'd like to think it's because Rick Berman and co only thought about each movie on its own and weren't so concerned about creating a progression between them, but the TOS movie makers basically admit they never had a grand plan, they worked on each movie as an individual piece but simply worked from an assumption that movie sequels by their nature don't exist in a vacuum and that events in one movie should be reflected in the next.

I think it's mostly due both to that the writers including Berman liked always focusing the most on Picard & Data (and their actors pushed to have that), thought they were the best characters & best for interesting the general audience (and were pretty uninterested in the others) and that there was such a tonal disconnect with Stewart pushing that Insurrection be light when its predecessor and successor very much weren't. Also that Shinzon was such an out-of-nowhere character and story, pretty totally disparate from the previous movies and also the TV series. If the tenth film had been about Lore or somehow related to the Borg or the aftermath of the Dominion War (including Romulans or how it effected them) or the Klingons it would have felt a lot more like a finale and thus made the predecessors feel more like a series too.
I do think the arc-ness/continuity of the original cast movies is at least a little overstated, though, much of the influence one had in the next was just the next reversing it (to be closer to the original status quo).
 
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Personally, I never felt that First Contact and the films beyond ever justified their existence. Generations destroyed the status quo (or at least dealt it some serious body blows), and Berman could have used that to reinvent NextGen for the medium of film. Instead, he put the status quo back together as though nothing had happened, and those three films feel like footnotes.

At the end of GEN, the ship is destroyed, the crew is separated (or at least rescued by three different ships), and it's unknown when a new Enterprise will be built or what the crew's future assignments will be. The last thing that should logically have happened was that two years later this same exact crew would be serving on the same ship, and that ship coincidentally is the new Enterprise, and they'd all be serving on it for the next six years with the same ranks. Did Starfleet suddenly decide that not only should this crew never be separated, not only should they never get promoted, but that they absolutely must all serve on a ship with the same namesake as their previous assignment?

As many have stated, the next two films are really nothing more than extra-long episodes of TNG. Nothing has changed with these characters, even Data's emotions subplot is nixed (which makes one wonder why it needed to be such a big deal in GEN), and even when Riker and Troi decide to get married and serve on another ship, the audience really has no incentive to care because they know this is going to be the last TNG film.
 
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The idea that the TNG crew stayed together (or mostly) is a rather absurd one given that there was a war going on in the period between First Contact and Nemesis. You'd think that would result in Starfleet's best of the best getting transfers and promotions as a result. It's especially bad with Worf, who was transferred and promoted and was over the course of his time on DS9 becoming quite the experienced command officer. Yet, when he returns in First Contact and Insurrection it's back to being the Enterprise's tactical officer. Well, First Contact at least draws on his command experience when he accuses Picard of allowing his experience with the Borg to cloud his judgment, But Worf of Insurrection could have been from TNG's TV series days for all we knew. Then when DS9 ended, he left Starfleet and became an ambassador, but then in Nemesis he's back in uniform and back to being tactical officer, as though his time on DS9 never happened. Okay, he continues to wear a red uniform, which started as a DS9 thing, but that was likely because they didn't want to make a gold shirt to fit Michael Dorn.
 
The idea that the TNG crew stayed together (or mostly) is a rather absurd one given that there was a war going on in the period between First Contact and Nemesis. You'd think that would result in Starfleet's best of the best getting transfers and promotions as a result. It's especially bad with Worf, who was transferred and promoted and was over the course of his time on DS9 becoming quite the experienced command officer. Yet, when he returns in First Contact and Insurrection it's back to being the Enterprise's tactical officer.
I believe there were a couple a reasons for that.

1) They didn't want to to confuse the more casual fans or the general public who might not have been watching DS9 and weren't up on all the ins and outs of the Dominion War.

2) They didn't want to waste screen time getting all of the crew back together from their diverse assignments. It's much easier to have everybody all on one ship at the beginning so that they could just dive into their stories. Heck, it was bad enough they had to find an organic way to get Worf back aboard the Enterprise in First Contact and Insurrection. Now imagine them trying to do that times six for two or three movies. Or imagine if the TOS movies had continued beyond VI and them trying to bring Captain Sulu and the Excelsior into the action each time out. Writing these movies and trying to service all the cast members is tough enough without creating additional problems for yourself.
 
I believe there were a couple a reasons for that.

1) They didn't want to to confuse the more casual fans or the general public who might not have been watching DS9 and weren't up on all the ins and outs of the Dominion War.

2) They didn't want to waste screen time getting all of the crew back together from their diverse assignments. It's much easier to have everybody all on one ship at the beginning so that they could just dive into their stories. Heck, it was bad enough they had to find an organic way to get Worf back aboard the Enterprise in First Contact and Insurrection. Now imagine them trying to do that times six for two or three movies. Or imagine if the TOS movies had continued beyond VI and them trying to bring Captain Sulu and the Excelsior into the action each time out. Writing these movies and trying to service all the cast members is tough enough without creating additional problems for yourself.

1. I'm not sure that casual fans or the general public were ever these movies' target audience. And as for the hardcore Trek fans (i.e. the ones who were actually watching the shows), this wouldn't be the first time that the producers insulted their intelligence. Remember how Starfleet Academy was destroyed in DS9 but was completely intact a year later in VOY?

2. "They didn't want to waste screen time getting all of the crew back together from their diverse assignments."

Which is the general problem that the OP is talking about. After GEN, the Enterprise-D is destroyed and the crew's future is uncertain. That could have been a jumping off point to tell some interesting stories that didn't involve them all immediately returning to a new Enterprise and just continuing on in TNG-esque fashion like nothing had happened. Instead, they went with the status quo and we got three more films that were really just big-budget tv episodes, and no real character growth at all. When you compare that to the TOS films, there's really no comparison.
 
At the end of GEN, the ship is destroyed, the crew is separated (or at least rescued by three different ships), and it's unknown when a new Enterprise will be built or what the crew's future assignments will be. The last thing that should logically have happened was that two years later this same exact crew would be serving on the same ship, and that ship coincidentally is the new Enterprise, and they'd all be serving on it for the next six years with the same ranks.

The crew isn't all together on the next ship, Worf isn't in it due to being assigned elsewhere.

It's not even rare, let alone coincidental, to have the same name, the Enterprise-D was the fifth ship of the name and in the series its crew was portrayed as being a great crew and doing a great job on many important missions, not surprising there would then be a sixth ship mostly reuniting the crew of the fifth.

As for lack of promotions, there weren't really higher places for Crusher or La Forge or Troi to go in their fields than CMO, chief engineer, counselor on the flagship, none had expressed particular interest in going into command to be first officer or captain.
 
After GEN, the Enterprise-D is destroyed and the crew's future is uncertain. That could have been a jumping off point to tell some interesting stories that didn't involve them all immediately returning to a new Enterprise and just continuing on in TNG-esque fashion like nothing had happened. Instead, they went with the status quo and we got three more films that were really just big-budget tv episodes, and no real character growth at all. When you compare that to the TOS films, there's really no comparison.

Our hero crew being guests on small ships like the Farragut and Bozeman was a nice unusual way to end Generations, the next movie being like that would have felt like change for the sake of change and also unbelievable if it was in-universe also two years later.
To me FC felt very cinematic, the next two (or just next one) did feel too just an episode but didn't have to while the third and fourth original cast films felt kind of cinematic due to the altered status quo but still television-ish and, regardless, not impressive or successful.
 
The crew isn't all together on the next ship, Worf isn't in it due to being assigned elsewhere.

Yet he's miraculously present when the situation calls for it ;)

It's not even rare, let alone coincidental, to have the same name, the Enterprise-D was the fifth ship of the name and in the series its crew was portrayed as being a great crew and doing a great job on many important missions, not surprising there would then be a sixth ship mostly reuniting the crew of the fifth.

Except that's not even close to what happens in the real world. The entire command crew, or at the very least Picard, should have been given court martials over the loss of the Enterprise-D. And even if they were exonerated, there'd be no way they'd all be serving on the same ship again, much less the new flagship of the Federation.

As for lack of promotions, there weren't really higher places for Crusher or La Forge or Troi to go in their fields than CMO, chief engineer, counselor on the flagship, none had expressed particular interest in going into command to be first officer or captain.

They go where Starfleet tells them to go.
 
Yet he's miraculously present when the situation calls for it ;)

Well it was a small change albeit forced by the spinoff. There was a fine explanation for his return in FC, then afterward there wasn't.

Except that's not even close to what happens in the real world. The entire command crew, or at the very least Picard, should have been given court martials over the loss of the Enterprise-D. And even if they were exonerated, there'd be no way they'd all be serving on the same ship again, much less the new flagship of the Federation.

I think throughout the franchise discipline within a crew and, maybe to a lesser extent but maybe not, even of Starfleet over the crew has been pretty lax. In particular the whole original series crew wasn't punished (aside from a welcome demotion for Kirk) or separated for stealing and then losing their ship.

They go where Starfleet tells them to go.

Throughout the series and movies it has seemed rare for Starfleet to force transfers even though believably a lot of characters might be more valuable elsewhere.
 
I believe there were a couple a reasons for that.

1) They didn't want to to confuse the more casual fans or the general public who might not have been watching DS9 and weren't up on all the ins and outs of the Dominion War.

2) They didn't want to waste screen time getting all of the crew back together from their diverse assignments. It's much easier to have everybody all on one ship at the beginning so that they could just dive into their stories. Heck, it was bad enough they had to find an organic way to get Worf back aboard the Enterprise in First Contact and Insurrection. Now imagine them trying to do that times six for two or three movies. Or imagine if the TOS movies had continued beyond VI and them trying to bring Captain Sulu and the Excelsior into the action each time out. Writing these movies and trying to service all the cast members is tough enough without creating additional problems for yourself.
Wasn't a problem for the TOS movies which had Chekov assigned to another ship for most of TWOK, Spock dead for most of TSFS, and the characters serving on a captured Klingon ship in TVH. And keep in mind, of these three movies, one is the franchise's fan favourite, and another is the most financially successfully of the TOS movies. In fact, until Trek XI it was the most financially successful in the franchise, period. So this isn't an issue for the "casual fans" or general public.
The crew isn't all together on the next ship, Worf isn't in it due to being assigned elsewhere.
It's actually really ridiculous how many of the Enterprise D's crew get assigned to the E. Aside from Worf, the E has the exact same senior staff as the D, and in First Contact we know Barclay, Nurse Ogawa, Ensign Jae and Ensign Kellog are all serving on the E. Ensign Jae is still there in Insurrection.
As for lack of promotions, there weren't really higher places for Crusher or La Forge or Troi to go in their fields than CMO, chief engineer, counselor on the flagship, none had expressed particular interest in going into command to be first officer or captain.
There's a war going on, and these are among Starfleet's most experienced and capable officers. Logically they should be reassigned to posts where they are needed, not allowed to wallow in the same jobs they've held for fifteen years.
 
Throughout the series and movies it has seemed rare for Starfleet to force transfers even though believably a lot of characters might be more valuable elsewhere.

The problem with that is that throughout the timeline of the films, the Dominion War was going on. There's no way that experienced officers like Riker, Geordi, and Data would still be serving with Picard. They would be commanding ships of their own.

Edit: Ninja'd by @The Wormhole
 
There's a war going on, and these are among Starfleet's most experienced and capable officers. Logically they should be reassigned to posts where they are needed, not allowed to wallow in the same jobs they've held for fifteen years.

Hell, there wasn't even a war going on and Starfleet forced a transfer of Commander Sisko to Deep Space Nine over his objections (which were somewhat legitimate, being a single father raising a young son on the far frontiers of space). Sure, he later decided to stay, but how is the command crew of the Enterprise immune to forced transfers and Sisko isn't (during wartime, with the Borg and the Dominion, no less)?
 
The problem with that is that throughout the timeline of the films, the Dominion War was going on. There's no way that experienced officers like Riker, Geordi, and Data would still be serving with Picard. They would be commanding ships of their own.

Edit: Ninja'd by @The Wormhole

I think Data still would have been with Picard, Crusher too. Riker absolutely should have had his own command by the time Insurrection rolled around with maybe Geordi as his XO.

It’s my biggest gripe with the TNG movies. They never really “played” with the War. It was always just background noise, which I both do and don’t understand.
 
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