Paradox:Easy way to restore the natural order

[Kurgan]

..without doing anything to undo what was done in the movie.

Knowing what we know about the fate of Romulus as the catalyst to Nero's actions(Spock beign unable to stabilize the supernova in time), all that need be done is to forewarm Romulus of it's fate before it's destroyed, which could happen very easily considering that the knowledge of it's fate is known by Old Spock,Young Spock,Young Kirk, and likely the past Federation.Not only would this likely keep Nero from interferign in the past in the first place but would restore most of the original future timeline and Vulcan in the process.

I'm not saying that SHOULD happen, but it easily could be explained away without much hulabuloo if they chose to go that route.

 

[Cheebo]

I seriously doubt we'll hear anything about Romulus going supernova ever again.

 

[Kurgan]

I seriously doubt we'll hear anything about Romulus going supernova ever again.

It wasn't Romulus that went supernova, it and Remus were destroyed by the supernova.Spock was intent on saving it but was unable neutralize it in time with the red matter before it claimed both Romulus and Remus.Nero having watched his home world's and his family's destruction took out his revenge against the federation and Spock because of this.Now that those events and Elder Spock are now in the Federtion's past, any events that claimed Romulus and Remus in the future could be altered, or at least there could be an evacuation of both world's in time, given that the knowledge of both planet's dstruction are also in the past with Spock(and others) and could be used to change future events if it was so chosen(Vulan's destruction could/would also be changed).I would find Elder Spock hard pressed not to use that information when and if he had the chance.

 

[Cakes488]

berry berry interesting this thread is..........

 

[ThunderAeroI]

That is an interesting concept, and makes Nero's actions when he arrives at the new timeline even more retarded. Obvously he would know this to be the case, he and spock both have the ability to put into plan an action that will save his wife. All spock needed to do was to tell him this and they would be good friends.

Now, this actually dosn't "help" nero, what it does it help his other "self" in the current timeline. One then must ask himself, the following question. Do I do this for me, or do I do this for "me".

 

[SpockWeed]

It would be a nice way to end the trilogy, final scene, ffwd to old Spock actually saving Romulus, Nero doesn't go back in time, old timeline restored. Kinda like Newhart.

 

[Ovation]

All of you are basing your argument on a faulty premise. In this new, alternate timeline, the future is NOT pre-ordained. There is no reason to assume that the exploding star of the "prime" timeline has an exploding counterpart in the alternate timeline. The "old" timeline does not need to be "restored". It remains intact, running in parallel (from 2233) with the new one.

 

[SpockWeed]

The premise is not faulty and niether is yours. It's all SciFi anyway, anything can happen that the writers decide. They restored the timeline in First Contact and tons of episodes. It can unfold a million ways and that's good.

I'm just glad Trek is back in a big way and am ready for the sequels. No ridges please.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

So Q says to Spock, "Look, I'll give you one wish. You can save Romulus or you can Bring Back Kirk!"

 

[gastrof]

So Q says to Spock, "Look, I'll give you one wish. You can save Romulus or you can Bring Back Kirk!"

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Right, so Kirk it is!

 

[gastrof]

All of you are basing your argument on a faulty premise. In this new, alternate timeline, the future is NOT pre-ordained. There is no reason to assume that the exploding star of the "prime" timeline has an exploding counterpart in the alternate timeline. The "old" timeline does not need to be "restored". It remains intact, running in parallel (from 2233) with the new one.

You're mistaken.

Nero's changing of the past would only have a limited effect on the universe around him. Hot would still be hot, cold would still be cold, left left, right right, etc.

Unless the supernova was caused by an external force, it's a natural phenomena that's already in its beginning stages as Kirk's made Captain of the Enterprise.

A hundred plus years later, the same star goes nova again.

The difference is that "someone" knows it's coming, and knows how to stop it. Even knows when it has to be stopped BY, in order to save Romulus and Remus.

End result?

Nero and Spock never get pulled back into the past, and thus the past never gets changed.

Only problem with this idea is that the past already HAS been changed.

The future moment when the nova is stopped is the future of this JJ-Trek timeline.

Vulcan is gone. Amanda died much earlier than she should have. Kirk grew up without his father, and that's already happened.

The only way to set things right would be to use the time rift that opens as the supernova collapses, and go back AGAIN, and this time stop Nero from attacking the Kelvin and doing all of his other nasty doings.

And who's Nero going to listen to? Can't listen to himself because he DIED with Kirk newly in command of the Enterprise. Spock? Yeah. Right.

The Nero that destroyed the Kelvin, the Nero from the original timeline, is NOT going to listen to ANY version of Spock, no matter what age he is or WHAT he knows.

Nero went totally nutz when Romulus was destroyed, as some of his reasoning (and lack thereof) shows.

The only way to save the Kelvin (and restore the original timeline) would be to go back with enough fire power to destroy Nero's ship as it emerges from the time rift.

Try to time THAT just right....

 

[gastrof]

Right, so Kirk it is!

Spock woud have sacrificed himself and all he had to restore Kirk (as Kirk did to save him), and totally ignore the usual Vulcan position on "many vs. one".

The problem is, Spock would in this case not be sacrificing himself, but would be sacrificing the lives of everyone on Romulus and Remus...

....just to save Kirk.

I don't think he'd do that, and to be honest, I don't think Jim would want him to anyway.

Just as Spock found portions of Sarek in Picard's mind, and in that sense was finally able to meld with his father, Spock must also have portions of Kirk buried in his own mind, from times they've melded.

Neither Kirk nor Spock would sacrifice so many lives to undo the death of one man...even if it IS James Kirk.

 

[DarthAkuma]

From Nero's POV, he can't stop the destruction of Romulus because for him it's already happened. Romulus of the alternate reality will likely be saved because of Elder Spock's knowledge, but saving Romulus in the alternate reality doesn't save Romulus of the original timeline. Indeed, the alternate reality and Elder Spock's presense in it wouldn't even exist but for the original Romulus' destruction.

 

[Ovation]

All of you are basing your argument on a faulty premise. In this new, alternate timeline, the future is NOT pre-ordained. There is no reason to assume that the exploding star of the "prime" timeline has an exploding counterpart in the alternate timeline. The "old" timeline does not need to be "restored". It remains intact, running in parallel (from 2233) with the new one.

You're mistaken.

I don't think so.

Nero's changing of the past would only have a limited effect on the universe around him. Hot would still be hot, cold would still be cold, left left, right right, etc.

Fine.

Unless the supernova was caused by an external force, it's a natural phenomena that's already in its beginning stages as Kirk's made Captain of the Enterprise.

Only if it is IDENTICAL to its counterpart at the quantum level. But let's say it is.

A hundred plus years later, the same star goes nova again.

OK.

The difference is that "someone" knows it's coming, and knows how to stop it. Even knows when it has to be stopped BY, in order to save Romulus and Remus.

Fine.

End result?

Nero and Spock never get pulled back into the past, and thus the past never gets changed.

Here is where you are wrong. This is not the same star, it is a counterpart in an alternate timeline. It exists in parallel with the one that did, in fact, explode (which led to Nero's desire for revenge for the destruction of Romulus in the "prime" timeline). The Spock that MIGHT still be alive at that time would be the altered Spock, not the "prime" Spock. Different person with vastly different life experiences informing his behaviour. As for Nero, IF he is born at all (nothing pre-determined about the new, alternate timeline, remember), he would not necessarily follow his counterpart's footsteps (the further out from the branching point of the timeline, the more likely the divergences will be greater). Since these two (Spock and Nero) are NOT the same individuals as those from the "prime" timeline who were thrust backwards, it matter not at all whether these two are pulled to the past or not.

Only problem with this idea is that the past already HAS been changed.

The future moment when the nova is stopped is the future of this JJ-Trek timeline.

NO. The future moment when the nova is stopped (by Spock "prime") is in the "prime" timeline. The supernova event, if it happens at all, in the "JJ-Trek timeline" is a SEPERATE event.

Vulcan is gone. Amanda died much earlier than she should have. Kirk grew up without his father, and that's already happened.

The only way to set things right would be to use the time rift that opens as the supernova collapses, and go back AGAIN, and this time stop Nero from attacking the Kelvin and doing all of his other nasty doings.

There is nothing to "set right". This new timeline's future is NOT pre-ordained.

And who's Nero going to listen to? Can't listen to himself because he DIED with Kirk newly in command of the Enterprise. Spock? Yeah. Right.

The Nero that destroyed the Kelvin, the Nero from the original timeline, is NOT going to listen to ANY version of Spock, no matter what age he is or WHAT he knows.

Nero went totally nutz when Romulus was destroyed, as some of his reasoning (and lack thereof) shows.

The only way to save the Kelvin (and restore the original timeline) would be to go back with enough fire power to destroy Nero's ship as it emerges from the time rift.

Try to time THAT just right....

There is NO NEED WHATSOEVER to "restore the original timeline". It remains intact, continuing in parallel to the new one. Doing what you propose (destroy Nero's ship as it emerges--and you'd better get it before it completely emerges and becomes part of an alternate timeline) would wipe out the new, alternate timeline before it branched off the "prime" timeline. It would NOT "restore" anything in the "prime" timeline at all.

 

[Infern0]

The old universe is gone guys, it aint coming back.................

 

[Braxton]

The easiest way to fix this would be to have the 29th Century time cops actually do their jobs and prevent this kind of thing from happening.

 

[Infern0]

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Braxton, yes what were you guys sleeping through this whole thing?

 

[gastrof]

Ovation-

I'm not going to try and reply to everything you've said, because that would be maddening.

I will however point out one thing where you're not paying attention to what I've said, and that would appear to be the problem.

When I said "The future moment when the nova is stopped is the future of this JJ-Trek timeline", this was NOT a reference to what Spock Prime described.

This is a reference to the fact that we're IN the JJ Trek universe now, and that when time catches up with itself and the nova is about to blow (and will have to be stopped...again), it will be the future of this new timeline.

The old timeline can't be accessed from JJ-ville. You can only move forward in the new timeline.

There is NO reason at all to think that just because Nero changed the past, that a certain star won't go nova. That's already in the beginning stages of happening, and nothing Nero did to the Kelvin or to Vulcan would have any effect on that.

Again, up is still up and down is still down. Why you'd think that one man changing a couple things would make the nova not happen is beyond me.

It's like saying you think that because Nero destroyed the Kelvin, all Earth-grown strawberries will instantly wilt on the vine.

Sorry. They're already growing, they're fine, and the death of George Kirk in another sector of the galaxy can't affect them.

Nero's time-travel is NOT changing the laws of physics in the universe so that the nova won't happen. A timeline being redirected by a time-traveler will only effect certain things. It won't alter the entire universe, or prevent something that's already happening.

A star going nova takes a long time, and unless an external force actually was to blame, then the process leading to the nova was already underway before Nero even arrived in the past.


EDIT:
By the way, would you please explain why you and a few others seem to think the 24th century Trek we knew has been left untouched by the changes in the past? We saw no sign of that in the movie, so where does your proof come from?

 

[Ovation]

With an entire century to worry about it and think of solutions, I'm sure something will be done about it.

My beef with your premise had little to do with the star itself--it had to do with the notion that the "original timeline could be restored". There is no need whatsoever for that as nothing has happened to it. It continues to unfold just as it always has.