Palais de la Concorde

Discussion in 'Trek Literature' started by Arpy, Jul 21, 2020.

  1. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I mean, the structure of the Federation government in the novel continuity and the internal structure of the Palais is mostly based off of the novel Articles of the Federation; I'm pretty sure @KRAD didn't come up with the internal layout of the Palais first and then base the novel around that. ;)

    Well, Articles establishes that the Federation President and Federation Council share power. There's less of a division of powers than you find in the U.S. presidential system -- the Federation President regularly serves as the presiding officer of sessions of the full Council and has the option of serving as presiding officer over sessions of the committees (called sub-councils); the President appoints Councillors to the different sub-councils with the confirmation of the full Council; the President may veto an Act of Council, but the Council may override the President's veto; the security committee (called the Security Council) has the legal right to issue binding orders to Starfleet in addition to the President being the commander-in-chief of all Federation forces; the President appoints ambassadors but they must be confirmed by the Council; etc.

    Broadly speaking, the President does appear to set the agenda in foreign policy, but they need to get the Council's support for major decisions, and the Council could vote to set a new policy by law if a majority strongly disagree with the President. It also appears to be an uncodified constitutional norm that the President will also solicit the advice of relevant Councillors for a given issue, bringing them into all the relevant meetings and treating them as a co-equal adviser with their own staff.

    As with all legislatures, a unified Council ultimately has more power than the President, but it is rare for a Council to act with that kind of unanimity. One of the subplots in Articles featured the Council deciding to gum up the works and bring most of the President's business to a halt because she had insulted their loyalty to the Federation's foundational principles for having ratified a trade agreement with a slaver planet during the Dominion War. This broad principle, that a unified legislature can basically render the executive powerless if it wants to, is true of most constitutional republics.

    I could certainly imagine that housing Council staff in buildings located elsewhere wouldn't be that big of an obstacle in a Federation with routine teleportation. I doubt that the flash transporters existed in the 2370s though -- I think that is an innovation of the 2390s. Nonetheless, textually, Articles established that Council staff are housed in the Palais, at least as of 2380.

    As a former Congressional intern who served both in a House of Representatives office and a U.S. Senate office, I can confirm to you right now that there is no "typing bank" (everyone knows how to type), and that there probably wouldn't be one in the Star Trek Universe anyway, since writing is usually dictated to a computer by voice. A typical United States Representative's office consists of, from the top of the hierarchy down: a chief of staff, a legislative director, a press liaison, a scheduler, 2-3 legislative assistants, 3-4 legislative correspondents, 1-2 staff assistants, and however many unpaid interns they can con into working for free. So usually something like 15 people. If I'm remembering the Senate office composition, it was: a chief of staff; a deputy chief of staff; an assistant to the chief of staff; a legislative director; 3-4 legislative assistants; 3-4 legislative correspondents; a press liaison; a deputy press liaison; a network administrator; 2 staff assistants; and again, however many unpaid interns they could con into working for free. Something in the area of 20-25 people.

    While a Federation Councillor would presumably be spared the 4-6 hours per day spent fundraising by Members of the United States Congress today, I'm afraid I don't realistically see a legislator of an interstellar union encompassing over 150 Member States (some with multiple planets under their own jurisdiction) realistically being called upon to do less genuine legislative work than contemporary legislators. It's almost a certainty that there would be too many issues coming under the Council's purview for any Councillor to develop meaningful expertise in any but one or two of them, and the needs of constituents to be able to contact and lobby their Councillors would be exponentially larger than in real life today. I could, with some suspension of disbelief, plausibly imagine that Federation Councillor would have a staff no larger than a real-life United States Senator; I can imagine them having a staff the size of a typical United States Representative if I squint. But I absolutely cannot imagine that a Federation Councillor would have less than 15 staffers at minimum.

    The kinds of staff work you're talking about it generally not the sort of thing that can be automated. Most of it has to do with responding to constituent calls and messages, soliciting and responding to journalists, developing and maintaining relationships with other Members' offices, developing and maintaining relationships with stakeholders on important topics, etc. It's mostly hands-on work that requires a sentient entity.

    I mean, I can't imagine that there isn't a giant deflector shield over Paris at all times, and if the Federation has any goddamn sense post-Wolf 359, there's probably always at least one dedicated fleet in orbit of Earth and another deployed in patrol of the rest of the Sol system, and that's not mentioning orbital defenses (both automated satellites and space stations) and ground-based defenses.

    Like, even when the Breen Militia attacked Earth in 2375, there's no evidence from DS9: "The Changing Face of Evil" or the Tales of the Dominion War short story "Eleven Hours Out" that they were able to hit the Palais. So I'd say the Palais's defense systems are probably more than up to the task of protecting both the Council and the President.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
  2. Arpy

    Arpy Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Although congress can it rarely does overturn a veto.

    But, again, optics too matter. Madame la présidente presiding from the penthouse apartments of the palais bedecked with Louis XIV furniture...not exactly Greek is it?

    I'm not sure – we rarely see civilian life. They could have been very common for a while. Maybe they're the landlines of the 24th or even 23rd century. They're "locked" transporter units always from one specific location to another, allowing for faster/safer transport. It think there could be lots of dazzling public works around we just never get to see. Maybe there's a transporter highway from Earth directly to Luna, stuff like that. Yorktown Station was something else, but on television it would have been another reuse of Regular One.

    Blasphemy.

    I think so too which is why I raised the issue of the building's size and offered Wars's Galactic Senate building as closer (if itself oversized) to what I'd imagine for the Council building. Still, I wonder how a futuristic councillor's office might radically differ from comparable ones today in an attempt to marry the size of the Palais with its function. That is without stretching those 15 floors (indeed fewer for the legislative branch alone) so wide that they umbrella over Place de la Concorde like an invading saucer from Independence Day prepping to fire the deathray.

    Trek does a horrible job depicting the stated speeds, ranges, and yes strengths of tech. You'd need more than a deflector over Paris. A volley of torpedoes from a starship could crack open a planetary crust.

    The Palais didn't exist? It was a doomed targeted strike at Starfleet HQ...which didn't make a lick of sense since it apparently included multiple ground hits yet not with weapons of even real world contemporary strength.
     
  3. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    TMP and the 2009 movie both indicated that Earth has a planetary defense grid that needed to be shut down before the planet could be attacked. V'Ger got the access codes when it invaded the Enterprise computer, and Nero tortured Pike to get them.
     
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  4. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    True! While legislatures in most constitutional republicans can override the executive if they wish, the amount of internal consensus it takes for a legislature to so act is extremely difficult to achieve. (Especially since legislators love to be able to criticize the executive without having to actually take responsibility for executing anything.)

    I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here? I mean, the Federation is a post-scarcity society -- literally everyone could decorate their apartments with Louis XIV furniture if they want! So I doubt that feels like the kind of flex it does in real life today.

    If you ask the average Federate, I think most of them would tell you that the President takes the lead in foreign policy and different Councillors take the lead in different areas of domestic policy, but that there's significant overlap for both.

    I don't agree. While I will concede that they could have been introduced as early as 2380, I think we've seen enough of Earth in the 2370s to rule out "flash transporters" having existed at that time. We saw extensive amounts of the grounds of Starfleet Headquarters and its foot traffic in 2372 (DS9: "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost"), we saw quite a bit of civilian life around New Orleans in 2372 and 2375 (DS9: "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost," "Image in the Sand") and San Francisco in 2372 (VOY: "Non Sequitur") and 2376-2378 (VOY: "Pathfinder," "Author, Author," "Endgame"), all without ever seeing flash-transporters. I think it makes more sense to presume they're a post-VOY innovation.

    Having said that, I imagine highly-secured flash-transporters are in common use in the Federation government by the 2390s. There are probably flash-transporter stations with permanent links between the Château Thelien (the official residence of the Federation President) and the Palais; between Starfleet Headquarters and the Palais; and between the HQs of the Federation executive agencies and the Palais. If there are Council office buildings separate from the Palais or a Federation Supreme Court Building separate from the Palais, there are almost certain flash-transporter links between them and the Palais as well.

    Well, apart from transwarp beaming, the longest standard range for a transporter in the 24th Century was about 40,000 kilometres, and the average orbital distance between Earth and Luna today is 384,402 kilometres. (The orbital distance will increase by the 24th Century, as Luna is gradually orbiting further and further away from Earth.) So unless standard transporters have increased their ranges by 9.61 times by 2399, this does seem unlikely to me.

    Well, I did a little bit of guestimation on this. According to this Business.com article, you're going to want an average of about 120 square feet per person in an office environment. If we assume an average of 20 staffers per Council office, that leaves us with an average square foot per Council office of 2,400. I then verified the number of Councillors' offices: 155 by the end of Articles of the Federation. After that, I tried to guestimate how many sub-councils (aka, committees) the Federation Council likely has. The United States House of Representatives has something in the area of 125-ish standing and select committees and subcommittees. I went through the list and tried to eliminate subcommittees that seemed like they wouldn't be applicable to an interstellar federation whose member states have autonomy over major local resource issues and other non-applicable real world issues, as well as subcommittees that struck me as redundant. I brought the number down to 90, and then decided to semi-arbitrarily bring the number of committees and sub-committees down to about 50 because I just have trouble imagining that the Federation gets into quite the same level of micro-managing the current House sometimes does. So that brings us to about 205 Council offices and committee offices, with an average staff of 20 people and 2,400 sq feet per office.

    That gives us a total of 492,000 square feet for the Council parts of the Palais -- Floors Four through Eleven according to Articles. So that's eight floors. 492,000/8 = 61,500 square feet per floor.

    So let's plug that number into the formula for determining the diameter of a floor. Well, we know that in a circle, Area = π times the value of the radius squared -- A=π(r^2). And the Palais is cylindrical. Well, Area = 61500. So,

    π(r^2) = 61,500
    ((π(r^2))/π) = (61,500/π)
    (r^2) = 19,576.058
    √(r^2) = √(19,576.058)
    r = 139.9145

    So the radius of each floor of the Palais would be 139.9145 feet.

    Since diameter equals two times the radius (d=2r), we can therefore find that the diameter of each floor of the Palais is 2(139.9145), or, 279.8289 feet. So let's round that up to 280 feet. Converted to metric, that's 85.344 meters in diameter.

    This is all a conservative calculation that depends on what starting numbers you plug into the equations. If we assume that the Council has an average of 240 square feet per staffer, suddenly we have a diameter of 395.74 feet (120.62 m); if we go with 240 sq feet per staffer and an average staff of 25, we get 442.49 ft (134.87 m).

    If we assume 240 sq ft per staffer, average staff of 25, and add in 40 more committee offices, then we get a diameter of 483.69 ft (147.43 m). This last size would have 183,750 square feet per floor. Contrast this with the Empire State Building, whose base is 424 feet by 187 feet -- so it would be about 59.69 feet wider in diameter than the Empire State Building is wide. This version of the Palais would have a floor area of 183,750 square feet, for a total floor area of 2,756,250 square feet across 15 floors. (The 3 subterranean levels would not have any obligation to be less wide across than the Place, so who knows how large they would be.)

    The actual Place de la Concorde has a length of 359 meters and a width of 212 meters, so even that largest version of the Palais (with a diameter of 147.43 meters) could easily fit inside the Place.

    So, yeah, after doing the math, I could plausibly imagine a Palais de la Concorde managing to fit enough Council staffers into Floors Four through Eleven, and still fitting into the Place.

    Nope. Articles of the Federation established that the Federation Council Chamber on Floor One of the Palais was in use by the time President Haroun al-Rashid left office, and The Romulan War: To Brave the Storm establishes that the Palais was in use by 2186.

    As I recall, "The Changing Face of Evil" doesn't go into a lot of detail about how much damage the Breen did, so I'm not sure I'd claim that the weapons weren't of real-world contemporary strength. IIRC, "Eleven Hours Out" establishes that the attack worked via a Breen special operations team seizing control of some of the defense satellites in orbit, with the USS Enterprise and USS Columbia then facing off against the compromised satellites and defeating them.
     
  5. Arpy

    Arpy Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Federation is but we're not. These things are chosen by the artists to say something to us.

    If you'd only watched TOS you'd never imagine they used holographic communications either yet in-universe and likely in the real world they'll be a thing. We saw very little of Earth in those episodes, and I can imagine if they turned the camera a bit more left you could see their own stylized fast transporters and a bit more right you could see a bunch more non-humanoids. It's the same as mentioned above re Regula One. DSC can afford a lot more visual effects than TOS, and whichever Trek series premieres in 2027 will likely retcon even more dazzling (and realistic) stuff in there.

    The Earth-Luna transporter highway idea I described as a "dazzling public work," not a normal long-range transporter. I'm thinking more a network of linked satellites. Didn't TMP novelization suggest they'd dammed off the Mediterranean? Plus Picard's friend Louis's Atlantis Project...Earth could be a lot more fun.

    Cool! :bolian: :bolian: :bolian:

    It wasn't there in '99 when "Changing Face of Evil" aired.

    I imagine it being built sometime in the next century. Maybe Troisieme Empire is a playful term made official for an architectural style not connected to imperialism (cool idea)...but I find myself inwardly giggling at the idea of France having another go at it (blue, white, and red standards waiving over some E-Con capital or wherever), especially after so much groaningly bad humor about their surrender in the last World War.

    Even a single contemporary nuclear warhead could do more damage than we saw at location in the episode.
     
  6. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I mean, okay, but if I'm looking at the internal layout of the Palais for some sort of symbolic expression of who has power, all I get is, "The President is the head of state, but the head of state relies upon the base provided by the Council."

    I think we saw quite a bit of the grounds of Starfleet Headquarters in "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost" -- at least as much as we saw in "Remembrance" and "Maps and Legends." There's just no evidence that flash-transporters were in place in the 2370s. Sure, the writers could retcon it in if they wanted -- but why? Why not go with the idea that new innovations happened between the 2370s and 2390s and the flash-transporter was one of them?

    Oh, okay! That's a neat idea. Especially if it's done with a flash-transporter network -- you could literally take on step on Earth, eight more steps on orbital stations, and then take your tenth step on Luna! I like it. :bolian:

    Okay, yes, metatextually the Palais had not been created yet in 1999, but in-universe the Palais existed before the 2375 Breen attack, and in-universe there's no indication the Breen were successful in attacking the Palais even if they managed to hit part of the grounds of Starfleet Headquarters.

    All I can tell you is, we've gotten two contradictory accounts of the Palais's origins in the novels, and neither involved being built before the establishment of United Earth or the Federation. In Articles, it was in use by the time of Haroun al-Rashid's presidency, and The Romulan War: To Brave the Storm had it in use by the 2180s. In Collatoral Damage, Admiral Akaar muses to himself that the Palais was built in the early 24th Century. (I reconcile the two accounts by assuming the Palais underwent major renovations in the early 2300s, to the point of being essentially rebuilt the same way the White House was during Truman's term.)

    Not if effective futuristic counter-measures are employed. Which could well be why Starfleet Headquarters wasn't more badly damaged -- maybe the damage we saw was a result of the deflector shields around San Francisco holding up fairly well!