Painkiller spinoff (Arrowverse)

[kirk55555]

The Flash is a complete snoozefest at this point.

I think, come the new season, I'm going to bag most of the Arrowverse shows and just watch the few I really care about: Superman & Lois, Supergirl, and Black Lightning.

Eh, I still like The Flash a lot. The Mirror Master/Mirror Iris stuff is horrible and the fact that they didn't wrap it up last season sucks (although that seems to have been a pandemic issue), but its the only CW Arrowverse show that I think still works. Its not as good as its prime, and it has a few consistent issues that I wish it would fix (it hasn't had a good season villain since Zoom, for example), but I like the characters enough to keep watching, and sometimes it really surprises me with good plots (I really enjoyed the stuff with Nora in Season 5, for example).

I'm shocked to see anyone say The Flash is the best Arrowverse show. I still enjoy it, but it's probably my least favorite of the current shows.
I'd go:
Legends of Tomorrow
Black Lightning
Batwoman
Stargirl (not actually set in the same universe as the other shows, but Crisis on Infinite Earth included it as Earth-2, so it's part of their multiverse)
Supergirl
The Flash

To me, its the only good one. I LOATHE Legends of Tomorrow and Stargirl, hate everything about Supergirl except Supergirl herself and Martian Manhunter, think Black Lightning is bad (like I've said above), and I liked the actual Batwoman well enough but refuse to watch Fake Batwoman when it debuts next year. I don't even really want to mention the tween drama with Superman cameos coming out next year.

In its prime (Seasons 1-3) , The Flash was the best superhero show ever made, Arrow Seasons 1-3 was pretty excellent and I cannot understate how much I loved Legends of Tomorrow's first season, it was second only to The Flash for me. But Arrow burned out by Season 4 (with Season 5 being good but only a temporary return to form), Legends died to me the second it ruined the JSA (Season 2) and then became even worse when it switched to being a stoner comedy and even Flash was unwatchable in its fourth season but came back with Season 5 and has stayed good. Is The Flash as good as it used to be? No, unfortunately, but its still pretty good and easily the best thing airing on CW, its not even a contest.

I think that the CW's insistence on stupid character drama combined with producers/writers who are obviously suffering burn out has hurt the entire Arrowverse, but its not like new blood has helped either (just look at the shitty Batwoman producers not understanding the concept of recasting). I've come to terms with the fact that the Arrowverse is a shell of its former self and will never be as amazing as it once was, but I can still enjoy The Flash and, when its eventually done, I'll be done with whats left of the Arrowverse.

 

[JD]

I really don't understand you at all.......

 

[kirk55555]

I really don't understand you at all.......

Everyone has different tastes. I like my superheroes mostly serious, but with a sense of humor when appropriate and some goofiness thrown in at times, which is why I like the MCU so much, because it generally knows how to balance all that. Even the more comedic stuff like Guardians of the Galaxy knows when to be serious and have character moments . The CW shows at this point have no balance. It's either all stupidity and dumbass shit like Legends of tomorrow, or unending pointless drama like Supergirl. The Flash still succeeds at balancing stuff most of the time, although in recent years even it has gotten to angsty at times.

it's even fine for a show to be darker or more brooding/angsty, like the first few seasons of Arrow, but that can't be all that it is. most of the bad CW shows fall into going too far in one direction or the other, but in different ways. Supergirl has a bunch of stupid teen style drama constantly and unending every second of its run time, while Legends of Tomorrow is just an unfunny parody program, it might as well be the tv version one of those movies made "by two of the six producers of scary movie". I genuinely loved Legends of tomorrow in its first season, had levity but had so many great serious moments and an amazing cast, now it's just stupid random shit all the time. Black Lightning is more the Supergirl Style of drama every single second, but a different type of drama, although still obnoxious and infuriating.

Star Girl I still don't really count as a CW Show, and it has unique problems. It has stupid teen drama, but it's biggest problem in my opinion is it's absolute hatred of the Justice Society of America and Geoff John's obsession with Star Girl herself. To be frank, he should never have been allowed to work on the show staring the character because, based on who she's influenced/inspired by, Johns is always going to treat her obnoxiously well to the detriment of every other character. His obvious (to comic fans) growing hatred of the JSA hasn`t helped.

Anyway, the point was that when the CW was good at making superhero shows, it had a balance with every character. Whether the show leanedmore dark like Arrow or more hopeful like flash, they balanced things out. They don't do that anymore, and hurts every show, although some more than others.

 

[Christopher]

Stargirl (not actually set in the same universe as the other shows, but Crisis on Infinite Earth included it as Earth-2, so it's part of their multiverse)

Now that it's moving to The CW, there are bound to be crossovers with the Earth Prime shows. I think they've said one is already in the works. That might be how the Prime characters discover that the multiverse still exists after all. (I hope it will be addressed whether this Earth-2 is connected to the previous one, and if maybe Harry and Jesse are still around.)

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Legends of Tomorrow

above...

Black Lightning

Just...no.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Why do a spinoff whose potential can really only lead it to do just above cancellation ratings? Shouldn't the point of any new show be to try to get high ratings? Spinning off literally the lowest rated DC show on the CW doesn't make much sense.

There are no guarantees. While some spin-offs were far less successful than the parent series (Joey's two seasons compared to Friends' ten), there have been spin-offs that lasted longer, such as Benson, a spin-off of Soap, which ran seven seasons, while Soap ended after four. Its a gamble, but in TV production, if there's enough of an interest from the audience, a spin-off will make to air, no matter what happens afterward. I'm not saying a Painkiller series will succeed (for reasons stated earlier), but i'm pointing out a reason why this is happening.

 

[kirk55555]

There are no guarantees. While some spin-offs were far less successful than the parent series (Joey's two seasons compared to Friends' ten), there have been spin-offs that lasted longer, such as Benson, a spin-off of Soap, which ran seven seasons, while Soap ended after four. Its a gamble, but in TV production, if there's enough of an interest from the audience, a spin-off will make to air, no matter what happens afterward. I'm not saying a Painkiller series will succeed (for reasons stated earlier), but i'm pointing out a reason why this is happening.

That's fair enough. Still, even without knowing the character, I have my doubts that it will be able to even match Black Lightning's ratings. But, like I said, I don't really care how CW spends its money, this decision just seems odd to me.

 

[Morpheus 02]

I'm skeptical about this; while Khalil/Painkiller had a compelling arc, I am not certain there's enough to base a series on him. He would be best served being a character on the parent series who is still trying to reclaim his real life/lost opportunities as a young black male, so he only shows up to deal with crime when things are really beyond the abilities of law enforcement and the Black Lightning team.

I would agree. I already wasn't quite feeling the "Terminator" personality in the beginning, though i guess the conflicted personality battle paid off. But i do NOT want to see that same mental battle playing out week after week.

..and after all of the serious work put into this character's plight since being being injured / transformed into a killer, the last thing a Painkiller series needs are any guest appearances / crossovers from those markedly inferior Arrowverse series.

It depends on the characters and story.

I mean, if it was Legends of Tomorrow, and they played the episode as such, then yeah, it'd be horrible. But i could see Joe West spending an episode with him, helping coach him through some stuff.

Or John DIggle and/or Harbinger (she's still working for ARGUS, right?) Depending on who is writing and how well they know the Arrowverse...it could work.

That was not the point you were arguing. That was:



No one is creating a Black Lightning spin-of for those who do not watch it--that makes no sense at all. As I already mentioned, spin-offs are made to appeal to those who are already watching the parent series, otherwise a concept would go to series as an original idea.

It depends on the audience. There would definitely be some carryover , but could also be something a DIFFERENT audience might like. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasnt the Jeffersons like that? It started form ALl in The Family, but i am sure it wasn't just All n the Family fans that watched. And movie wise, i know Black Panther's audience was not just Marvel geeks who followed every movie.

Apparently, there is an audience interested in seeing more Painkiller/Khalil--enough that spin-off would considered (although I still say he's better utilized on the parent series--but not for any claims of ratings, etc.) .

Maybe it's in the BL thread, but I am surprised no one has mentioned that Jordan Calloway seems perfect as a next generation action hero.

I definitely think he would be amazing (and successful) as a action movie hero (or maybe even villain at times). i don't know how successful that genre is on TV nowadays (or at least after Covid isolation).

i think as a CW series... i don't think he will get the recognition and success he deserves. Maybe on HBO or Netflix...

ANd i had hoped with SUpergirl ending, they would stop the glut of DC TV. They should have 2 or maybe 3 shows max on at a time.

This wlll strain viewership

 

[kirk55555]

Maybe
ANd i had hoped with SUpergirl ending, they would stop the glut of DC TV. They should have 2 or maybe 3 shows max on at a time.

This wlll strain viewership

This is just ridiculous. Even though I think the arrowverse has been going downhill, there's obviously more than enough of an audience on CW to justify having at least a DC show every weekday. There's no such thing as a glut of TVshows, not in the way you mean. Good or bad, the CW DC shows are all fairly different, and ratings-wise they are all doing well by CW standards. I know that the recent swamp things repeats on the channel also did really well. The last thing CW needs right now is less DC television, regardless of what I think of the quality of the shows.

 

[theenglish]

I've been watching Swamp Thing and wish I hadn't even started, because it is good and makes me a little sad knowing there is only ever going to be one season. Last season most of the Arrowverse shows were subpar, but Flash had a decent second half to the season, Arrow had a fun last season, and Stargirl had a very promising first year. Black Lightning had its best season yet, and Batwoman was good too. I didn't like Supergirl or Legends very much but am hopeful that they will return to form next year.

The problem last year was that the first half of most shows were taken up by COIE and then the consequences of that crossover weren't very well thought out. I don't think we need more shows though as it is difficult enough to keep up with those on the air now.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

^There is some chance for Swamp Thing to return, if the response from the CW rerun is good enough. Whether it's being incorporated into one of the other DCW shows (like Constantine was), or a second season (where they'd probably have to move to other locations and build new sets). Crystal Reed has signalled she'd be happy to return.

 

[Christopher]

^There is some chance for Swamp Thing to return, if the response from the CW rerun is good enough. Whether it's being incorporated into one of the other DCW shows (like Constantine was), or a second season (where they'd probably have to move to other locations and build new sets).

The Crisis epilogue established Swamp Thing as taking place on Earth-19, though I suppose they could retcon or ignore that, since it was just a brief glimpse. Still, I don't see Swamp Thing fitting that well into any of the current Arrowverse shows. Maayyyybe he'd fit tonally with Batwoman or Black Lightning, but I don't see much of a story connection. One would naturally like to see Swamp Thing and Constantine together, but dropping Swampy into the goofiness of Legends would be a profound tonal shift.

 

[Jayson1]

Problem with this is the character is only fun when he is bad and evil. Take away that and I don't know if it will work. Granted I recall a similar issue many years ago with Angel when he got his own show away from Buffy. It worked then so maybe now as well.


Jason

 

[Kai "the spy"]

The Crisis epilogue established Swamp Thing as taking place on Earth-19, though I suppose they could retcon or ignore that, since it was just a brief glimpse. Still, I don't see Swamp Thing fitting that well into any of the current Arrowverse shows. Maayyyybe he'd fit tonally with Batwoman or Black Lightning, but I don't see much of a story connection. One would naturally like to see Swamp Thing and Constantine together, but dropping Swampy into the goofiness of Legends would be a profound tonal shift.

Well, before they did it, most people wouldn't have thought John Constantine would tonally fit on LoT.

 

[Christopher]

Well, before they did it, most people wouldn't have thought John Constantine would tonally fit on LoT.

Yeah, they pulled that off, but that's kind of the point -- it's been done, so it would feel repetitive to do the same with Swamp Thing.

 

[theenglish]

Constantine could easily guest star on Swamp Thing. Personally I would love a JLD but I understand that is currently being considered as a movie.

 

[Jayson1]

I do wonder why they are trying to build spin-offs on questionable characters to build a show around. Oliver's daughter was another one. Unlike Superman I am not seeing the logic when you have better choices like a Diggle as Green Lantern show or a Nora West in the future series or a Killer Frost show or a Captain Cold from the Planet X series.

Jason

 

[Christopher]

Constantine could easily guest star on Swamp Thing.

Indeed, Swamp Thing's showrunner Mark Verheiden was a producer on NBC's Constantine. So it would've been a good fit. Unfortunately, the vagaries of TV production on different networks reared their heads, so the show substituted the Phantom Stranger in Constantine's place.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

Constantine could easily guest star on Swamp Thing. Personally I would love a JLD but I understand that is currently being considered as a movie.

I think JLD is going to be an HBO Max series, or a bunch of series based on the Netflix/Defenders model.

 

[JD]

above...



Just...no.

I'll admit Black Lightning is a better show, but I'll always take silly and crazy over dark and serious, so until we start seeing things like giant a Beebo fighting a demon on Black Lightning, Legends is always going to be above it.

Unlike Superman I am not seeing the logic when you have better choices like a Diggle as Green Lantern show....

This one was off the table the moment they decided to do a GL series on HBO Max.