P/C run amok...

[mon capitaine]

^ Yes but they all do that. Whenever a romantic clinch is interrupted by Picard or Data calling, Riker, Troi, Bev, Spot, whoever, always share a guilty smirk. No doubt relieved it's only an audio link.

 

[Naraht]

Oh, but she really did feel guilty. Admit it.

 

[mon capitaine]

He was a little obvious wasn't he? Small wonder she felt embarrassed. It's not like we've seen her being picked off by hollywood handsome types before.

 

[Naraht]

Hmm, well, if we haven't, then it's clearly bad taste on the part of all of the Hollywood handsome types out there...

I was about to argue that Jack Crusher fit the description, but then I realised that was only in my dreams.

 

[mon capitaine]

^Really? See that's where we differ. I prefer to think of him as being far more interesting than just dead eye-candy.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Posted by Naraht:
^^^ Indeed.

It's interesting to note that Beverly reacts with the same sort of guilt in The Host. She and Odan are kissing in his quarters... Picard calls on the comm... Beverly puts her hands to her mouth and we get one very guilty look out of her! Although both of them may have had other short-term relationships, I think it's always been clear where their affections really were.

Yup. And she was going to great lengths to hide her relationship from the crew... Like when she and Odan were playing Turbolift and Data interrupted.

 

[Naraht]

Posted by mon capitaine:
Really? See that's where we differ. I prefer to think of him as being far more interesting than just dead eye-candy.

Why can't he be both? Picard seems to manage being interesting and handsome at the same time quite nicely...

Back to P/C, though. How often do we think that they actually have breakfast together? Every single day? Once a week? Somewhere in between? As we've seen, they also have dinner together occasionally, like when they're both going to a concert.

 

[mackillian]

<span class="spoiler"><font class="small">Spoiler:</font><hr /><span>A certain book says that they had breakfast together once a week while on the Enterprise.</span><hr /></span>

 

[Naraht]

^^^ I hardly think that counts as a spoiler. But I'll take it as an answer.

I just wrote an essay for my LJ about why some people don't like Picard/Crusher, and I thought I'd repost it here. Allow me to apologize in advance if I've misrepresented anyone's motives, and I would be more than happy to be corrected. For this is based on only a little not-very-scientific observation:

How can it be possible? How can some people maintain a resolute lack of interest in the most fascinating, complex couple to grace our television screens in a long time? There are three very obvious answers: 1) they don't like TNG, 2) they don't want too much romance in their sci fi, 3) they simply find the characters dull. All of which are perfectly valid. However, there are other more subtle reasons. As I've discovered on the TrekBBS recently, there are quite a few people who really like Picard, but on no account want him to get together with Beverly Crusher.

My theory is that these devotees of Picard don't like the P/C relationship because they feel that it makes him look helpless, out of control, or just rejected. Think about it. Beverly had had what seemed to be a perfectly fulfilling marriage, she has a son, and although she is interested in Picard, she is very wary of actually moving into a relationship with him. The two times that he proposes such a thing to her, in Allegiance and Attached, she rejects the idea outright. Picard, by contrast, is presented as someone who has never had a long-term relationship, in part (perhaps) because for the past twenty years he's had this unrequited love for his best friend's wife. Who even yet hasn't realised what a wonderful person he is, and thrown herself at his feet. I have a real life friend who has absolutely no sympathy for Beverly because she (my friend) cannot imagine turning Picard down even for a moment. "Picard is powerful, sexy, intelligent, cultured, etcetera etcetera. How dare Beverly reject him, and yet keep this unfair hold on his affections for decades? She doesn't deserve him!" This is the attitude that I've encountered quite a few times, and I think at the root it derives from jealousy of Beverly.

I'm not sure whether fervent fans of Beverly have a similar attitude towards Picard. Are there any deep fans of Beverly who feel that P/C isn't good enough for her? Well, there's me, I guess, in that I'm really a "P/C, because Jack's dead" shipper. But other than that, I've never encountered anyone else who feels similarly.

Any comments?

 

[MrsPicard]

^

Hmm... I consider myself as a COMPLETE opponent of P/C, and I think some of what you wrote is really true. I know many people who feel the same way I do. Beverly is not the right woman for Jean-Luc.
I mean, she's arguing with him all the time, she's always trying to make him see HER point of view of things, but she's constantly forgetting that *he*'s the captain and not *she*. Take episodes like "Who Watches The Watchers" or "Suspicions", for example. She does what she wants and doesn't give a damn about the consequences, leaving Jean-Luc to clean up all the mess.

She's *always* getting on his (and my *lol*) nerves, nagging him constantly that he should do exactly what she wants him to. He refuses and she plays this ridiculous "I'm pouting, Jean-Luc, can't you see? I thought you like me and yet you refuse to do what *I *want" game with him.

Calling him by his first name is another thing that is getting on my nerves, I mean, NO one does this, yes, I know, she's known him for quite some time, but she is still an OFFICER aboard his ship. I've never seen another one of his officers calling him Jean-Luc (except when they were not themselves ). She's using this 'calling him by his first name' as yet just another opportunity to make him see HER point of view as the only possible one. By calling him Jean-Luc, she's trying to make him see that she's closer to him than the rest of the crew and that this means that he has to listen to her and her ONLY.

There are many more reasons why I oppose P/C, but I guess that's enough for now <span class="spoiler"><font class="small">Spoiler:</font><hr /><span>and that is exactly why I have decided to stop reading the novels that are set after Nemesis, it's sad since I've been a collector of the TNG novels for some time, but I see no other option, and I have talked to people who feel the same way I do, remember, they're 'neutral' and not as biased as I am when it comes to Jean-Luc, they all said it's very sad that an author falls for such a shipper relationship - no offense meant- but I, as a light supporter of P/Q *wouldn't* have been happy if MJF had decided to write a P/Q novel - not that this is gonna happen, it's just an example. I don't think such things have *any* place in an official novel. In fan fiction, oh yes, hell, why not, I do the same in my fan fiction, I love to write about shipper pairings, but in novels? No. That's what's making me quite sad, actually. Thank other authors for the Titan novels, they're the ones I'll be concentrating on, I just hope they won't do a crossover novel with the Enterprise ones. <.< </span><hr /></span>

Don't forget, I'm biased when it comes to Jean-Luc because he means more to me than I actually want to admit to myself, but there are other people in the fandom who feel the same way, they dislike Beverly as a character and find it just utterly frustrating to see her getting on Jean-Luc's nerves.

I love TNG, and I have *nothing* against romance in sci-fi - as long as it is not becoming a 'Loveboat' version, of course.

But Beverly as a character is just too UGH... I really don't like her. Don't get me wrong now, I would probably like her if she was a bit more like Eline, the woman Jean-Luc/Kamin meets in 'The Inner Light'.

Beverly is just so very stubborn and often gives a damn about Jean-Luc's orders, and he lets her get away with it just because he likes her. It's his fault also, I don't put all the blame on Beverly. He should remind her that she's *not* the Captain of the Enterprise and that she has no right to interfere with his orders.

So, that was my little rant for today. I hope I could help you with some insight into the mind of a P/C opponent.

And I'm sorry if I offended you in any way, that was not my intention, I just get too emotional when it comes to this "relationship".

 

[mackillian]

I like the mystery of the spoiler box.

Mrs.Picard, what's odd is that what you find to be inappropriate for Crusher to do in regards to her behavior towards Picard, I find appropriate.

Maybe it's because I tend to be stubborn and oppositional myself. I appreciate it much MORE when she confronts him in private and not in front of the crew, as in, that's when it's appropriate to do so if you feel there's issues surrounding a decision on a course of action.

Maybe it's entertainment value? A feisty relationship is generally more fun to "watch."

Part of why that scene in First Contact made no...sense. When Beverly just accepts a crap decision Picard makes. That was exactly the right time to speak up and make him see exactly what is going on. The reality check.

As for the first name thing...she IS outside the command structure. And didn't McCoy call Kirk by his first name a lot "He's dead, Jim," comes to mind.

I also remember that when I was watching the show growing up, I was R/T and never thought twice about P/C. That when the series finale aired and we learned that Picard and Crusher married, I thought, "Well, duh. Sad that they divorced, though." And nothing more. Completely nonplussed.

 

[mon capitaine]

Posted by MrsPicard:
Calling him by his first name is another thing that is getting on my nerves, I mean, NO one does this

True. I've never understand how anyone ever gets to call him Jean-Luc. I don't recall him ever inviting anyone to. Those that do are either old friends (though when they got licence who knows), Admirals who are lording it or non-starfleet women who fancy him.

I should add though that I thought Beverly using his first name in the first season was pretty crucial for the humanising of Picard. He was a bit of sod that year, and I'm sure it helped the image of his character no end to have someone use his first name and take the piss a bit.

 

[Naraht]

Posted by MrsPicard:
And I'm sorry if I offended you in any way, that was not my intention, I just get too emotional when it comes to this "relationship".

No, no, not at all! I'm fascinated by the fact that two people can view the same character so differently, and I appreciate your taking the time to explain your own opinion.

I suppose I'm of the view that Picard needs a woman to challenge him a bit, to shake up his life and stop him from being so self-righteous and set in his ways. Beverly does definitely take advantage of her relationship with him, but Picard is hardly a pushover; if he thought that she had crossed the line, he would tell her so. (As, indeed, he does in Suspicion.) I like Beverly because she has a bit of spirit to her.

Posted by mackillian:
I also remember that when I was watching the show growing up, I was R/T and never thought twice about P/C. That when the series finale aired and we learned that Picard and Crusher married, I thought, "Well, duh. Sad that they divorced, though."

Me too! Absolutely! My first TNG fanfic was an R/T story written when I was seven. They were married and had a daughter named Jane; the story had chapters and everything! I remember thinking "about time" when Attached happened, but I wasn't particularly excited by it. I think that the P/C relationship is a bit more subtle than R/T, and perhaps takes more maturity to appreciate. (Not that I've ever stopped supporting R/T, you understand.) It isn't an idealised romance... they both have pasts to overcome, and it has notes of tragedy in it. I think you have to have lived a little to understand the interest of P/C.

Just my two cents, though.

 

[R.Barclay]

Posted by mackillian:
As for the first name thing...she IS outside the command structure. And didn't McCoy call Kirk by his first name a lot "He's dead, Jim," comes to mind.

Well, Spock IS inside the command structure, but he called Kirk by his first name several times... and Riker didn't do it with Picard. It isn't about doctors, it is about the difference of the captains.

 

[Whoa Nellie]

Posted by Naraht:
I just wrote an essay for my LJ about why some people don't like Picard/Crusher, and I thought I'd repost it here. Allow me to apologize in advance if I've misrepresented anyone's motives, and I would be more than happy to be corrected. For this is based on only a little not-very-scientific observation:

You seem to have left out people who love both the Picard and Crusher characters but simply find a platonic friendship between the two characters much more believable than a romantic relationship between them.

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie

 

[Naraht]

^^^ I suppose my notes were looking more at people who dislike the pairing because they dislike one character or the other. To be honest, I don't know that many people who like both but still don't want them to be together.

 

[MrsPicard]

@ Naraht

I'm glad I didn't offend you. *relieved* Like I said, I'm sometimes overreacting a bit when it comes to P/C.

I also think Jean-Luc needs a woman who's challenging him - but I don't think it should be Beverly.
I don't think it could work between them - I believe they're both too strong personalities and both too stubborn.
I found it wonderful of course that they were divorced in "All Good Things..." because that's *exactly* how this relationship would end, they just don't fit together. They both want to be in command of situations and they both think their opinion is the only and the right one.

Hmm... I dunno if it depends on someone's age and experience to like P/C, though.
I've got a few friends who once were P/C shippers when they were teenagers, they would have loved to see them together, but they say now that they've grown (a little) older they see that this relationship just can't work. (no, they don't just say this because they're my friends and I would kill them if they said anything different )
So, I've made the opposite experience

And as for myself - from the first time I saw her I knew I didn't like her, but then, again, I'm biased.

 

[ensign blue]

Posted by Naraht

To be honest, I don't know that many people who like both but still don't want them to be together

This definitely has a ring of truth to it as far as I'm concerned. If I was asked to name my two favourite TNG characters I would go for Picard and Beverly as separate entities i.e. I enjoy episodes that focus just on their characters without any P/C being involved. So when they come together that's like double the fun.

I never was particulalry grabbed by R/T but am pleased it all worked out. For me though P/C just has that magic "chemistry" on the screen, which I think partly comes from the tragic element to the relationship, and partly from the actors.

In general terms I think it does work better from a dramatic point of view when relationships are unrequited, however, given it's very unlikely we'll see them on screen again in something new I'm more than happy if they get together on paper. After all I've been waiting long enough.

 

[Naraht]

Posted by MrsPicard:
Hmm... I dunno if it depends on someone's age and experience to like P/C, though.

Yeah, I had the feeling that I was talking rubbish while I was typing that.

If I was asked to name my two favourite TNG characters I would go for Picard and Beverly as separate entities i.e. I enjoy episodes that focus just on their characters without any P/C being involved. So when they come together that's like double the fun.

Exactly. Basically I think I'm a P/Cer because they are my two favourite characters, and thus I love to see their interactions in detail.

 

[mackillian]

I think I agree with both of those. And by "those" I mean the age realating to P/C vs. R/T and liking both Picard and Beverly and just wanting more interaction.

And yeah, Mrs.Picard, I agree that the good captain would need a challenge.

Though, it could be my own bias, I get annoyed by women who don't challenge. Wait, no, people who don't challenge. ...I'll stop talking out of my ass now.