P/C run amok...

[Amelie]

Posted by Whoa Nellie:

Posted by Amelie:
So am I right in thinking that if a book killed off Beverly then she would not necessarily be dead for screen purposes (not that she's gonna appear in anyhting else) or guest appearances on future new shows?

Yes, you are absolutely right. :thumbsup: Basically, if it didn't air, it's not canon. Original scripts, books, etc. are not considered canon for the Star Trek universe. Only the final episode/movie as aired is considered to be canon. That's different from Star Wars which considers the books to be semi-canonical (not quite as 'canon' as movies, but still a level of canon).

Warmest wishes,
Whoa Nellie

Phew that has me so relieved.

In that case, I'll read the book whatever the outcome!

 

[Naraht]

I'm back! And am I going to be able to avoid being drawn into this Picard/Vash debate, which seems to already be past? Hmm. No, I'm not.

I am still recovering from an epic trip back from the Lake District yesterday, so please forgive me if I'm even less coherent than usual...

It could be just me, but in my mind, the sort of woman suitable for "sex and shooting" does not imply "one true love". Unusually for P/C shippers, I have nothing against Vash, and think that she was an excellent holiday romance for Picard as well as being an interesting character. Even so, I can't see her as being Picard's perfect woman. He enjoyed her as a refeshing change from his normal routine, but was mortally embarassed when she decided to turn up on board the Enterprise. He had never wanted his private life on holiday to cross paths with his professional life.

Let me, predictable, speak up for Beverly Crusher. She is the one that is there having breakfast with him every morning, managing to be a real friend, a colleague, and a romantic interest as well. I object strongly to the notion that Beverly would not be able to "go toe to toe" with Picard; we have actually seen her do so many times, and on issues of far more importance than Vash chose to fight. As for sharing interests, it's true that she isn't an archaeologist, but Picard is a renaissance man and he has other strings to his bow. Beverly's interest in theatre comes to mind. And when it comes down to it, I don't think that anyone who hadn't also devoted their life to Starfleet would understand Picard, and the sacrifices that he had made for his career.

As for what Patrick Stewart thinks about Vash, I'm sure he was right about the active sex life. Fine. But what that quote was really saying is "I fancy Jennifer Hetrick more than Gates McFadden." Bad taste, alas.

In conclusion, as mon capitaine said, I don't think of this as a "one true pairing" sort of shipper thread either. We enjoy discussing the Picard/Crusher relationship in all of its exasperating complexity, but realise that it is not the be-all and end-all of the characters' lives. Personally I'm almost as interested in the Jack/Beverly relationship. And I do believe that Vash had a place in Picard's life... just not the one that you have drawn.

 

[Whoa Nellie]

Let us begin by saying welcome back to Naraht. Although we are known for our Picard/Vash stories, Whoa Nellie does have two P/C stories. The first story we posted to the BBS board, 'Connections' was our explanation for the motivations behind the actions in the episode "Attached," and was a 2003 ASC Award winner in the Picard/Crusher category. Our second P/C story is a 'mirror universe' story called 'Career Advancement' that was posted to ASC on March 27, 2005. Unfortunately, there is no way to edit 'Career Advancement' to meet BBS board rules. If anyone (over 18 years of age please) would like to read it can be found on the miscellaneous Star Trek page of the Whoa Nellie's Sci-Fi Romance Fan Fiction Website the link is on our Fanfiction.net author page.

Posted by Naraht:
He had never wanted his private life on holiday to cross paths with his professional life.

You're quite correct. Picard states very clearly in "Qpid" the distinction he makes between his personal life and professional life.

In the reception scene, Picard tells Vash, "A captain does not reveal his personal feelings to his crew."

In the final scene of the episode, Picard slides closer to Vash on the couch gazing into her eyes while tenderly stroking her cheek. "I may not share my feelings with my crew, but I do have them."

Dr. Beverly Crusher is the chief medical officer onboard the Enterprise. This makes her a part of his command staff. She is first and foremost a member of Picard's crew! Vash is Picard's lover.

Posted by Naraht: She is the one that is there having breakfast with him every morning, managing to be a real friend, a colleague, and a romantic interest as well.

A romantic interest? Where is your canon for any sexual relationship between Picard and Beverly Crusher? (unless you count them both being stoned off their *sses in Naked Now or the parallel timeline from All Good Things that does not come to pass). Any Picard/Crusher sexual relationship is purely fanon. Beverly may share breakfast with Picard, but she is NOT the woman who shares Picard's bed. The episode 'Attached' is very clear on the point that the romantic feeling Picard had for Beverly are in the past.

Picard "And then, little by little, I realized that I didn't have those feelings anymore . . . twenty years is, after all, a long time."
Beverly "And now we're friends."
Picard "Yes, friends."

They were telepathically linked so he could not lie to her and for whatever reason at the end of the episode Beverly walks away from him.

Posted by Naraht: I object strongly to the notion that Beverly would not be able to "go toe to toe" with Picard;

One word here; insubordination. Beverly Crusher is an officer under Picard's command. We are shown this quite clearly in Star Trek First Contact.

Lily "What do we do now?"
Beverly "We carry out his orders."

Beverly "Once the captain has made up his mind the discussion is over."

Posted by Naraht: And I do believe that Vash had a place in Picard's life... just not the one that you have drawn.

We feel the best fan fiction is always a believable extrapolation from series canon. The major downfall of the P/C fics is that it can't be (at least we haven't seen it) done with both of them in any recognizable semblance of their canon characterizations. P/C shippers tend to spend a great deal of time and energy trying to deny, excuse or completely re-write canon in order to make the pairing believable. In one parallel timeline that does not come to pass (from All Good Things), there is a period of time where Picard and Crusher are married but there is precious little fic about that time; probably because they end up divorced. Instead, they have to demonize Jack and turn Beverly's marriage into torture because she can't possibly have been happy in her life without 'her Frenchman' in her heart. (We'll spare you our diatribe on the whole ridiculous P/C fanon idea that Wesley is Jean-Luc and Beverly's lovechild and what that implies for characterizations.) They completely destroy Beverly Crusher's professionalism as a doctor and officer, major insubordination not to mention fraternization. We've seen them go so far as to turn her into a pathetic, doormat of a dolt who insists on claiming the consortium of a man who just slept with someone else.

We don't have to deny/excuse/re-write series canon to make Picard/Vash a workable pairing since Behr did such a good job in designing the character of Vash to start with. After Captain's Holiday, Piller loved the character and pairing enough to float the idea of marrying Picard off to her. Even Q could see the pairing: in Qpid, Q points out to Picard: "Still it pains me to see the great Jean-Luc Picard brought down by a woman . . . Don't play coy with me, Captain, I witnessed your little spat with Vash. Nor will I soon forget the look of anguish on your face, the pain, the misery. If I didn't know better, I would have thought you were already married . . . This human emotion, love, it's a dangerous thing, Picard and obviously you're ill-equipped to handle it. She's found a vulnerability in you, a vulnerability I've been looking for for years. If I'd known sooner, I would have appeared as a female. Mark my words, Picard, this is your Achilles heel . . . You deny that you care for this woman? Believe me I'd be doing you a big favor if I turned her into a Klabnian eel . . . I was just trying to help . . . You would have me stand idly by as she led you to your destruction?" [To which Picard answers an emphatic Yes! and if you have that episode on tape/DVD--listen to how Jean-Luc says Vash's name at the beginning when he finds her in his quarters ] Seriously, we extrapolate what the proposed marriage of Picard and Vash would have looked if it had come to pass. We have two solid hours of canon to base it on.

Our first P/V 'romance novels' pick up a year after Generations (we'll be posting the Double Entendre universe after we've posted the Reasons of the Heart universe to the fan fic forum--wouldn't want to swamp the forum with our cotton candy fluff ). So we take Picard's character as it has been developed by the end of the series and the contemplativeness of Generations (the death of Robert and Rene') and Vash from the two TNG eps and the DS9 ep and they work beautifully together.

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie

 

[Naraht]

Some thought-provoking points. A few responses...

Posted by Whoa Nellie:
Our second P/C story is a 'mirror universe' story called 'Career Advancement' that was posted to ASC on March 27, 2005...

I've read it! It was pointed out to me because I also wrote a mirror universe P/C story, coincidentally titled "How to advance your career through marriage," at around the same time. But the plots are very different.

Posted by Naraht: She is the one that is there having breakfast with him every morning, managing to be a real friend, a colleague, and a romantic interest as well.

A romantic interest? Where is your canon for any sexual relationship between Picard and Beverly Crusher? (unless you count them both being stoned off their *sses in Naked Now or the parallel timeline from All Good Things that does not come to pass). Any Picard/Crusher sexual relationship is purely fanon.

Sexual relationship? Hmmm? In my book, romantic and sexual do not necessarily equate to the same thing. We know from The Naked Now and Attached that Picard and Crusher have had romantic feelings for each other, although if you wanted to be pedantic you could argue that they weren't simultaneous. But I strongly believe that the dynamic between those two can be described as romantic, even if nothing ever happens. The fact that nothing happens is partly what makes it interesting (as with Mulder and Scully, or the Ninth Doctor and Rose).

Posted by Naraht: I object strongly to the notion that Beverly would not be able to "go toe to toe" with Picard;

One word here; insubordination. Beverly Crusher is an officer under Picard's command.

Yes, and Beverly has on several occasions been shown to flirt with insubordination, and even to cross the line. The only reason why she got away with her behaviour in The High Ground or I, Borg was because Picard makes exceptions for her. It was only in Suspicions that he wasn't able to protect her from the consequences of her actions.

We feel the best fan fiction is always a believable extrapolation from series canon. The major downfall of the P/C fics is that it can't be (at least we haven't seen it) done with both of them in any recognizable semblance of their canon characterizations. P/C shippers tend to spend a great deal of time and energy trying to deny, excuse or completely re-write canon in order to make the pairing believable.

I agree with you much more than I think you realise. There is indeed a lot of rubbish fanfic out there that ruins the characters with the single-minded goal of getting the two of them together. But I think you're making a mistake of assuming that romantic fiction must necessarily mean sexual fiction. I write P/C, but have not done anything remotely like a "happily ever after" scenario yet, nor one where the our universe's Picard and Crusher even sleep together. There's more than enough to explore in the dynamic between those two without writing either of them out of character.

Instead, they have to demonize Jack and turn Beverly's marriage into torture because she can't possibly have been happy in her life without 'her Frenchman' in her heart. (We'll spare you our diatribe on the whole ridiculous P/C fanon idea that Wesley is Jean-Luc and Beverly's lovechild and what that implies for characterizations.)

Your diatribe is my own. If you read through this thread, you will see that no one has opposed the demonisation of Jack Crusher in stronger terms than I have. I dislike that sort of P/C intensely. I don't see any reason why Beverly having had a perfectly happy, or even idyllic, marriage should be any obstacle to her later having romantic feelings for Jean-Luc Picard. People are capable of having more than one love in a lifetime.

So, I do see the reasons why you object to P/C as a pairing. Indeed, I share many of your feelings about the way that the pairing is written. But that doesn't make me want to give up on it entirely. I suppose it depends on what you want or expect out of 'shipper fanfic; I read for the exploration of character, and dislike very explicit writing. So the fact that Picard and Crusher never had, and arguably would never have, a sexual relationship is not really a problem for me. To each their own.

 

[LISA_t]

Welcome back, Naraht! It's good to see you in one piece.

Naturally, I agree with your defense of P/C fanfic, and also your (and Whoa Nellie's) identification of some of the traits inherent to some brands of P/C fanfic. The best P/C fanfic highlights the tension between the characters- sexual and otherwise. As Whoa Nellie argues, you could say that there are more difficulties in the way of a P/C relationship- but those difficulties are precisely what can make this pairing so interesting to write about. There are so many tensions and conflicts to be resolved that a good P/C story should first and foremost be an exploration of character rather than a wholesale excusrion into NC-17 territory, which I also frankly dislike. I can read it- in very small doses, but I prefer the explicit sex to be left out- or left to the imagination!

Let's face it, there's only so many ways to write about sex without becoming repetitive, boring, or both!

 

[Whoa Nellie]

Posted by Naraht:
I've read it! It was pointed out to me because I also wrote a mirror universe P/C story, coincidentally titled "How to advance your career through marriage," at around the same time.

We must admit to being surprised at times by our own notoriety. We still find it disconcerting to hear someone was aware of a story of ours before we had mentioned it. We hope you enjoyed the story. Although, we will confess that was a particularly evil and very naughty little plot bunny. "Career Advancement" was a little darker than our usual fare, even our Picard/Vash/Mirror Picard stories aren't quite that cold blooded. We have way too much fun with mirror universes.

Posted by Naraht: I suppose it depends on what you want or expect out of 'shipper fanfic; I read for the exploration of character, and dislike very explicit writing. So the fact that Picard and Crusher never had, and arguably would never have, a sexual relationship is not really a problem for me. To each their own.

:thumbsup: Very well said. We agree completely that it depends on what you want or expect out of a fanfic. Our writing forte has always been the romance story, a guilty pleasure we lovingly refer to as the Star Trek bodice-ripper. We never considered the Picard/Crusher pairing a viable option for what we wanted to do because there were just too many canonical pitfalls to them actually being lovers (most of which have already been discussed in this thread). However, the Picard/Vash pairing, actually being lovers established by canon, was perfectly suited for our purposes.

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie

 

[Naraht]

Posted by LISA_t:
Let's face it, there's only so many ways to write about sex without becoming repetitive, boring, or both!

Or without becoming ever more explicit and shocking in an attempt to hold the interest of the audience. I think quite a bit of fanfic (not so much with TNG, thankfully), has become an exercise in brinksmanship, with writers competing as to how extreme they can be. Meh.

 

[Gold Grizzly]

/\ Indeed; I've found that Picard/Q fanfic appears to be almost exclusively of an explicit content, whereas a more restrained approach would be more realistic for the characters.

 

[Naraht]

You really are a P/Q shipper, aren't you?

Have you ever thought of writing a story of your own?

 

[Gold Grizzly]

Writing isn't a strength of mine, I fear. I'm okay for thinking up plot points, but I find my writing style laboured, plus character depth is a problem.

 

[Whoa Nellie]

Sex doesn't have to get repetitive and boring if the writer is doing more than just setting it up for the characters to get it on. The 'admit-our-feelings-for-one-another-and-do-the-mattress-mambo' stories get repetitive because that's all most writers tend to do. Slash tends to be where there's a lot of explicit sex, although there are some good slash writers that put a lot into characterization. We have seen some fanfic lists where the writers seem to write only to see how far they can push the envelope in terms of social norms. By contrast, in stories that incorporate sex as either part of the plot or as part of showing the characters' relationship with one another--the intimacy of a loving, happy relationship--then the explicit sex (if well-written) adds to the story. It requires a fair amount of creativity to keep the sex from becoming a generic sex scene that can be dropped into any story anywhere, but there are some fanfic writers out there who manage to do that fairly consistently.

Wasn't there a poll in the media fairly recently that found (WARNING: update from the Department of the Obvious ahead) people enjoy movies more with happy endings or feel-good endings. If a movie is dark, depressing or has an unhappy ending, people are likely to view the movie as unsatisfying. The poll basically showed that upbeat, positive movies made more money at the box office than dark or depressing movies. With that tendency in mind, readers are more likely to enjoy stories that leave a pleasant feeling behind more so than stories that leave a sense of futility behind. Well-written smut is like candy, it's a guilty pleasure that leaves a sweet taste in your mouth but too much can be bad.

That said, there are stories out there with very little, if any, graphic sex that are wonderful character pieces and leave a very pleasant feeling behind. One of our favorite writers is Seema who does some great Picard/Janeway stories (post-Endgame).

Warmest wishes,
Whoa Nellie

 

[LISA_t]

I think I've read a couple of those plus her P/C stories and one P/C story which is an extension of her P/J universe. I really enjoy those.

Talking of stories minus graphic sex, one (this is completely OT by the way, but I do have a point) author I like whose lead characters have an *extremely* active sex life and a very loving relationship is Elizabeth Peters' Amelia Peabody series. Admittedly, the sex revelations (or lack of them) form a running joke through the series, since they are supposed to be diaries written at the turn of the 19/20th c. Amelia is always saying that she feels no embarrassment about her sex life with her husband, that she's no prude and is quite happy to describe what happens.... but then modesty gets the better of her. Anyway, I suppose that what I'n saying is that this an example of a depiction a loving, sexually fulfilling relathionshop with NO graphc sex (but plenty of hints and euphemisms) that I personally would like to see emulated within Trek shipper fanfic.

Then again, each to their own.

And my absolute favourite P/C(ish) fanfic of all is 'Echoes' on ASC. There is some sex, some of it explicit, but it only forms a very tiny part of an otherwise huge epic. As opposed to bonk-a-thons ....

 

[Whoa Nellie]

Posted by LISA_t:
Anyway, I suppose that what I'n saying is that this an example of a depiction a loving, sexually fulfilling relathionshop with NO graphc sex (but plenty of hints and euphemisms) that I personally would like to see emulated within Trek shipper fanfic.

Then again, each to their own.

:thumbsup: We couldn't agree more. Given our romance, bodice-ripper focus, we've been surprised at how many of our stories we've been able to remove the smut from and still have a story to post We've written everything from PWP's and bonk-a-thons ( love that term) to Plot-driven or character-centric pieces over the years. Ironically though, out of the more than 50 stories we have between our three Star Trek universes, all but one of our assorted fanfic awards (mostly ASC) are for our smutty pieces. Some have plot, some are just light-hearted romps, but our smut is the most popular part of our stories. Probably the only aspect of our stories that we receive almost as many rave reviews for is our characterizations.

We do have one ASC award for a 'nothing-but-plot' story. Yes, believe it or not, we are capable of writing a story that has absolutely no smut in it at all it's just not as much fun as the smutty stuff to write or read.

We've never written to an audience (obviously or we wouldn't be writing the pairing that we do ), we've always written for our own enjoyment; but we have noticed that the smutty, light-hearted (upbeat, pleasant) stories receive more feedback and awards than the plot-heavy stories. Plot-heavy stories in general only receive significant quantities of feedback if there's some really good smut woven into the story. That's somewhat amusing given that we've been doing more plot-driven pieces as of late ('Out damned plot, out I say' to paraphrase the Bard). But, our theory of why there's so much bad NC-17 fic around the net--it gets feedback and most authors tend to write what gets feedback instead of concentrating on producing a good story.

If a writer isn't comfortable or creative enough to handle graphic sex in a story, then the story would probably be much better without the sex and just implying the sexual relationship. And there is no doubt that a lot of the NC-17 fanfic out there might be a great deal improved if the author were to remove their effort at sex. But as we said before, well-written smut is a guilty pleasure that we both enjoy for ourselves and take great delight in being considered as. We received feedback once that referred to our collective body of writing as a 'guilty pleasure' which just tickled us no end; not to mention the people who send us feedback privately because they don't want to acknowledge publically that they read us. We're always delighted with those e-mails because they were considerate enough to take the time to let us know that they enjoy our work.

Then again, Lori's Captain and Counselor series doesn't have any graphic sex in it and it's a wonderful example of good writing, characterization, etc. Some writers choose not to use graphic sex and it doesn't detract at all from the quality of their work. We prefer the naughty fluff, but as you said to each their own.

Posted by LISA_t:
And my absolute favourite P/C(ish) fanfic of all is 'Echoes' on ASC. There is some sex, some of it explicit, but it only forms a very tiny part of an otherwise huge epic. As opposed to bonk-a-thons ....

Ke Roth has indeed created a very complex, intricate story with Echoes. :thumbsup:

Warmest wishes,
Whoa Nellie

 

[Naraht]

Posted by LISA_t:
And my absolute favourite P/C(ish) fanfic of all is 'Echoes' on ASC. There is some sex, some of it explicit, but it only forms a very tiny part of an otherwise huge epic.

Yes, Ke Roth is brilliant; she's got some of everything in there. I can't wait to see what she's going to do with P/C in the end. One of the scenes between the two of them <span class="spoiler"><font class="small">Spoiler:</font><hr /><span>(the one where she tells him basically "you bastard, get out of my sickbay!") </span><hr /></span> nearly had me in tears. And I am not a particularly emotional reader at all.

 

[Dr. Sabok]

In the discussion of Beverly's supposed lack of friends no one mentioned that we see her specifically call Nurse Alyssa Ogawa a friend in "Lower Decks". Their friendship was developed in a low-key manner over the 6th and 7th seasons of TNG quite nicely, I think.

 

[mon capitaine]

Blimey, I'm away from the board for a couple of days and the P/C thread is suddenly all about sex.

 

[Naraht]

^^^ You'll just have to go away more often.

 

[mon capitaine]

^ Bah.

Posted by Dr. Sabok:
In the discussion of Beverly's supposed lack of friends no one mentioned that we see her specifically call Nurse Alyssa Ogawa a friend in "Lower Decks". Their friendship was developed in a low-key manner over the 6th and 7th seasons of TNG quite nicely, I think.

Interesting. Much as I want to make the case that Crusher has lots of friends and isn't pining away wasting her best years over Picard, I'm not sure how friendly she and Ogawa actually are.

I think this is an example of a reasonably close working relationship without too much fraternisation outside of the job. Bev is Head of Department and so ultimately Ogawa's boss. They may have occasional girly chats but its all done on Bev's terms, she gets to use Alyssa's christian name as seems to be the senior officer's right while Ogawa always uses Bev's title as Doctor. I think we have here an example of how difficult it is to maintain a friendship with someone of a different rank, especially someone who is your superior.

 

[WillsBabe]

I don't recall which episode it is, but when Beverly tells Ogowa she considers her a friend, it seems to take Ogowa by surprise.

 

[Whoa Nellie]

Posted by mon capitaine:
I think we have here an example of how difficult it is to maintain a friendship with someone of a different rank, especially someone who is your superior.

Excellent point. :thumbsup: Nicely put.

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie