P/C run amok...

[Whoa Nellie]

Posted by Gold Grizzly:
I can't really imagine them staying together in the long term,

We've never posted to this thread because our stories dealing with the Picard/Vash pairing is what we've become known for. Not that we have anything against P/C, our story "Connections," which was our explanation for the motivations behind the actions in the episode "Attached," won a 2003 ASC Award in the Picard/Crusher category.

However, we would like to address the Picard/Vash issue brought up by Gold Grizzly. Vash was designed by writer Ira Steven Behr specifically to be the perfect woman for Picard after Patrick Stewart's request for more "sex and shooting." Around the fourth season, Michael Piller, the show's associate executive producer, inquired about marrying Picard to Vash to provide some new story dynamics. The studio executives killed the idea of marrying off the captain. The shipboard marriage idea survived in the fourth season episode "Data's Day" where Miles O'Brien married Keiko Ishikawa.

With over thirty stories and numerous awards, we have found going where Piller wanted to go and Berman didn't to be very easy not to mention a lot of fun. Vash's character fits in easily with the crew as a civilian scientist. Vash is an archaeologist, a female Indiana Jones. We write her as, to paraphrase a line slightly, a Doctor of Archaeology, expert on the Gamma Quadrant, obtainer of rare antiquities. In canon, before meeting Picard on Risa she spent five years working as a personal assistant to Professor Samuel Estragon, an archaeologist who's work Picard knew.

Moreover, Vash is not a Starfleet officer, which gives us a great deal of leeway in our stories and helps us avoid the numerous pitfalls that P/C shipper authors seem to have to contend with. Vash's spirit is exactly what makes her perfect for Picard; her brazenness complements his more sedate personality flawlessly. She is the ideal foil for Picard's straight man. She's the only woman shown in the series as a romantic interest for Picard who would be able to go toe-to-toe with him. Of course the character of Vash was designed specifically to be the perfect mate for Picard--even the empath Kamala describes Vash's characteristics when she lists Picard's 'ideal mate'

And obviously Patrick Stewart considered Vash to be Picard's main love interest because in December of 1998, he was quoted in the Calgary Sun as saying, "I personally like to think Picard and Vash had a very active sex life. I can't believe Picard just read Shakespeare up there in his room all those years."

Sorry for the slightly long-winded interruption. We will now slink off to our own corner of the BBS board and allow you to continue your one-true-pairing shipper discussion.


Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie

 

[mon capitaine]

Our one-true-pairing shipper discussion ?

I don't think of this thread that way. I'm sure we're very civilised and like to discuss around the P/C thing, hence Vash, Daren, that chap from The Host. You know: all the associated flings.

I freely admit to struggling to see Vash as a longterm relationship though (much as I enjoy reading Whoa Nellie's fanfic). It’s pretty clear she was using him in Captain's Holiday. He was a handy bit of muscle to have around to fend off the ferengi and the sex was just a fringe benefit. Even in Q-pid she has an ulterior motive for dropping by and I've never really found Q's games to make Picard say he's in love very convincing.

Unless we are to believe all archaeologists behave the way she does, then she is fundamentally dishonest: she lies and steals and that has got to be a deal-breaker for Picard. Kamala's description of his perfect mate didn't include 'and may steal the family silver at any moment'. That aspect of her personality makes her fun and exciting for an episode or two but even Beverly doesn't seem put out by her obviously making herself at home on the ship, she knows it won't last.

Oh, and I'm sure at the time Stewart wanted nothing more than to spend every episode in bed with Hettrick so I'm going to treat his views on Vash as somewhat biased.

 

[Whoa Nellie]

First of all, thank you for clarification on the purpose of this thread. Although, we are hardly newbies to posting on Star Trek fan forums, we are new to the BBS board. We also truly appreciate hearing that you enjoy reading our fanfiction. So thank you for that as well.

Actually there is canon that supports the notion that archaeologists behave the way Vash does. In canon, before meeting Picard on Risa she spent five years working as a personal assistant to Professor Samuel Estragon, an archaeologist who's work Picard knew. It was Professor Samuel Estragon who hired the Ferengi Sovak to aid in his explorations, especially in situations that weren't quite ethical. Moreover, Picard isn't surprised at all and is amused by the idea. (3rd season episode Captain Holiday.)

Also in the 6th season episode "The Chase," Picard's own mentor Professor Galen comes aboard the Enterprise wanting Picard for, as you put it, a handy bit of muscle.

GALEN
"... I'm sorry, Mister Picard. But that information has a price --your agreement to join me on the final leg of this expedition."

PICARD
"For how long?"

GALEN
"Three months. Perhaps a year. If we had a starship and complete diplomatic access -- a matter of weeks. But we'll have only my shuttle, the transports we can arrange, and our combined talents."

PICARD
"Why can't you do this without me?"

GALEN
"I'm not a young man. There will be hazards along the way. I don't want my own inadequacies to jeopardize the completion of this work."

In this episode Professor Galen is operating exactly the way we were told that Professor Samuel Estragon did and the way Vash did. Therefore, it is a believable extrapolation from series canon that fieldwork in interstellar archaeology can be a somewhat rough and tumble, wild wild west like business.

In our opinion, the best fan fiction is always a believable extrapolation from series canon. We started writing TNG fanfic back in the summer of 1995, several years before we had internet access. We had no idea fanfic online even existed and we relied strictly on TNG series canon. In TNG canon, Vash, not Beverly Crusher, was Picard's main love interest. We extrapolate what Pillier's proposed marriage of Picard and Vash would have looked like if it had come to pass. We have two solid hours of interaction between the two of them. We've seen how they tease each other. We've seen how they bicker with each other when they disagree. We've seen how Picard is prone to taking extreme actions concerning Vash, storming a castle single handily and running Sir Guy through with a broad sword while the two men duel over Vash. This was Q's point to Picard in Qpid when he says, "Sadly, they're all fine... but the point is they could have been killed, and you might have been too... all for the 'Love Of A Maid.'" We've seen how Picard makes love to Vash (to the point allowed by network sensors anyway). We also have a good bit of interaction in Qpid where she's meeting the Enterprise crew to draw from in speech patterns, interactions and characterization in general.

Just a funny side note, while doing some TNG canon research for a story, we discovered that for someone who professes to love archaeology so much, Picard has a nasty little habit of blowing up the archaeological treasures he runs across; the Tox Uthat, the Stone of Gol, the Iconian gateway and the Promellian battle cruiser. In our stories, we have Vash refer to this as Jean-Luc's litany of archaeological sins.

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie

 

[mon capitaine]

I think the sins of archaeology deserve their own thread.

Still think Vash is just there as a Sex toy rather than a compatable mate. She'd have dumped him in a heartbeat when it suited her purpose.

running Sir Guy through with a broad sword while the two men duel over Vash

It was that or be run through himself. I'm entirely convinced that was romantically motivated.


Edit: Oh bugger. I'm NOT entirely convinced that was romantically motivated.

Sigh. How Freudian of me.

 

[Whoa Nellie]

Posted by mon capitaine:
I'm entirely convinced that was romantically motivated.

That's exactly what we think. Great minds think alike. Unless of course, there is a typo on your part, in that case never mind.

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie

 

[Gold Grizzly]

Moving on to another P/C threat, how about Wesley? Would Picard see him as a burden in any relationship, or would he enjoy spending time with him, since they do some bonding in "Final Mission"?

 

[mon capitaine]

I think Wesley was an obstruction to P/C during the early years. I don't care how enlightened the 24th century should be towards single parents, I really can't see Picard being at all comfortable at the breakfast table with the two of them. Picard's fear of children was still pretty strong then.

He'd also be a constant reminder of Jack and the guilt over Jack's death for both Picard and Beverly. It's significant they don't get really cosy until Wesley is off the ship.

 

[Amelie]

Hi

I'm new here and just found this site by accident! For a start I'm surprised and delighted that SO many other people are P/C fans! No one else I know even likes star trek let alone gets as involved adn thinks so much about it as I do. Well at least I can have virtual conversations now

Anyway, I nealry threw somwthing at the screen at the end of Attached..... it was the end of the whole series, and only a handful of episodes left, it wasn't gonna throw a spanner into the works to have P/C get together when there were so few episodes left..... Apparently they wanted ot leave Picard free for potential love interests in the movies. Well with Lily in ST:FC and Anij in ST:INS those love interests were hardly worth it!

Anyway, somehting at the moment has my blood running cold: the new novel due out "Death in Winter". What has me worried is A) the title, B) the fact that Beverly is in sillhouette and C) this commentary I fonud on the internet.... I cut adn paste it here:

"Biography:

Michael Jan Friedman's most recent Star Trek novel, Death In Winter, finally resolves the decades-long love affair between Beverly Crusher, who--in the wake of Nemesis--has returned to Earth to reprise her role as head of Starfleet Medical and Jean-Luc Picard, who has lingered on the Enterprise-E with every intention of remaining a Starfleet captain.

While some fans may be okay with what happens in Death In Winter, some may not. In fact, a lot may not.

In other science fiction franchises, drastic changes in the dramatic arc of a major character have resulted in bad things for the author in question. Michael Jan Friedman, who after almost forty Star Trek books has hardly killed anyone, has no desire to take the rap for this deal and would like to make it known at this time that none of what takes place in Death In Winter was his idea.

It came from somebody else. A guy he knows. Yeah, that's it--just a guy.

So if fans are offended by the events of Death In Winter, Mike wants them to know he's really, really sorry, but he's not the one to blame, okay? Heck, he barely remembers writing the thing. In fact, the more he thinks about it, the more he's inclined to chalk it up to some kind of conspiracy."

OK that has me scared,... sound like they're gonna kill off Beverly. If they do I'm not buying it and not reading it. Does anyone know for sure?

 

[LISA_t]

Cripes!
That really doesn't sound good. Everything I've read implied that Beverly wouldn't actually die...
Isn't that book due out soon? Does anyone know for certain one way or the other? I mean, I probably will buy it if only for the interaction aspect, but if Bev is actually gonna kick the bucket i want to have a box of tissues handy. After reading the fanfic 'Dying of the Light' (see ASC, can't remember author's name, beautifully written but SO sad..) I howled like a baby and felt like a real idiot. Lucky noone here to see!

 

[Whoa Nellie]

Posted by LISA_t:
After reading the fanfic 'Dying of the Light' (see ASC, can't remember author's name, beautifully written but SO sad..) I howled like a baby and felt like a real idiot. Lucky noone here to see!

We think the story you're referring to is 'The Dying of the Light' written by E. Wallace posted to ASC on April 27, 1999.

A simple search on google or the ASC archive at trekiverse should turn it up easily for anyone who is interested.

Warmest Wishes
Whoa Nellie

 

[mon capitaine]

Posted by LISA_t:
Cripes!
That really doesn't sound good.

You can say that again. I just can't believe they would kill her off though. Surely there are enough Bev fans who would be pissed off and never buy any more books?

My guess is that thinking she's dead, Picard finally decides he has feelings for her, then surprise surprise she's alive - but then she dumps him anyway. That would be most Bev-like.

And hey, welcome to the board Amelie.

 

[Amelie]

Posted by mon capitaine:

Posted by LISA_t:
Cripes!
That really doesn't sound good.

You can say that again. I just can't believe they would kill her off though. Surely there are enough Bev fans who would be pissed off and never buy any more books?

My guess is that thinking she's dead, Picard finally decides he has feelings for her, then surprise surprise she's alive - but then she dumps him anyway. That would be most Bev-like.

And hey, welcome to the board Amelie.

I really hope you're right! I've read an exceprt from the book that tells a story about Beverly being shot point blank by a disruptor, but then if Beverly really is gonna die then WHY relese that particular section? If she does die then that can't be how it happens as they've effectively given the end of the book away.

I hope they're just teasing us and making us think she dies.

Bu then again, if you look at the book "Articles of the Federation" someone called Chirurgeon Ghee P'Trell is listed as head of starfleet medical (not Beverly Crusher) and the book is set in August 2380, 10 months after Death in Winter. I don't know if that's intended as a spoiler. If she's not head of SFMedical anymore then either she dies, goes back to the Enterprise or leaves Starfleet altogether. I personally hope it's one of the latter.

Maybe TPTB are just trying to keep everyone guessing. If they were really gonna kill her then I'm sure they wouldn't have given away so many hints about it. Unless they're trying to soften the blow as the the author says he's sure ALOT of fans wont be ok with it. I think I'll get someone to read the end first when it comes out..... and if she dies, then I'm NOT reading it.

Anyway, novel writers aren't screen writers and I have noticed that there are large inconsistencies between the Trek universe in books and the Trek universe on screen. So even if a book did kill off Beverly then if they ever had a new series and used guest stars or made refeences to other characters then all liklihood is, the screen writers would take no notice of Beverly's death in a novel. She'd probably still be alive for screen purposes. So all would not be lost......

Oh and thanks for the welcome

I just stumbled on this site by accident and I can't beleive there is so much discussion over P/C. I had no-one to talk to about it befor, I thoguht it was just me that loved it!

 

[LISA_t]

I agree with everything you say, but two things worry me..I found the original interview Amelie (crumbs, nearly put an 'a' in there..) cited. It talks very specifically about how rare it is for MJF to kill characters, then says that he *KNOWS* a lot of fans are going to be majorly unhappy, and winds up making a comment about wanting bodyguards at some conference or other...

On the plus side, the interview states that this book will be the first one to look at Beverly's life and background in any detail. Maybe they'll kill her off at the start, have Picard off doing a Poirot, and include lots of flashbacks and so on. If that's the case, it sounds rather like a mystery novel and could be VERY interesting. And since the events in the books have never affected the way I view anybody, my conclusion is that I'm still going to buy it.

Which reminds me, when exactly is it out? Amazon and co are vague, and I've seen references to both June and September.

 

[WillsBabe]

^ Beverly is not a favourite character of mine, but I'm majorly unimpressed if she gets offed in a novel. Majorly unimpressed. We can't have these Trek authors killing chracters! It's bad enough when fanfic writers do it.

 

[mon capitaine]

I can't see it happening. Surely there are only three possibilities that would upset the 'fans' (i.e. us):

1. Bev dies
2. They live happily ever after (this would upset some people)
3. they go their separate ways.

It's got to be option 3.

Looks like September before we find out.

 

[Amelie]

I hope you're right about option 3.

Mabe the book will just be a big fuss over nothing. Maybe they will just toy with it again adn just leave them apart will will piss fans off. But then why say he hates killing off charachters?

I have noticed BIG inconsistencies in novels and the TV series. The novel writers and screen writers dont seem to compare notes. I''ve seen people leave teh ship for good in a novel (Dr Selar left the Enterprise D to work at Vulcan Science Academy in a very early novel) but then in the tv series, she was still an officer. She was still referred to as an officer even in the final series. Indeed, novels by other writers included Dr Selar after she was meant ot have left. There are far too many inconsitencies to count with so many characters. This is just one of them.

Also, the star trek encyclopedia's and refrence sources only take you up to the end of the last series or movie, they NO notice of developments in ANY novel.

So am I right in thinking that if a book killed off Beverly then she would not necessarily be dead for screen purposes (not that she's gonna appear in anyhting else) or guest appearances on future new shows?

I mean all the stuff about R/T in the 2 Imzadi novels was NEVER touched upon in any series, movie, or ST encyclopedia. It was confined to the novels.

Am I right in thinking that for screen purposes, there would be no notice taken of her death in one novel?

So all would not be lost?

 

[Whoa Nellie]

Posted by Amelie:
So am I right in thinking that if a book killed off Beverly then she would not necessarily be dead for screen purposes (not that she's gonna appear in anyhting else) or guest appearances on future new shows?

Yes, you are absolutely right. :thumbsup: Basically, if it didn't air, it's not canon. Original scripts, books, etc. are not considered canon for the Star Trek universe. Only the final episode/movie as aired is considered to be canon. That's different from Star Wars which considers the books to be semi-canonical (not quite as 'canon' as movies, but still a level of canon).

Warmest wishes,
Whoa Nellie

 

[Gold Grizzly]

Posted by mon capitaine:
I can't see it happening. Surely there are only three possibilities that would upset the 'fans' (i.e. us):

1. Bev dies
2. They live happily ever after (this would upset some people)
3. they go their separate ways.

It's got to be option 3.

Looks like September before we find out.

I don't know, they've been failing to get together for so long that that wouldn't really be considered big news I would think.

 

[LISA_t]

Well if option three is the alterative to 1, I'll take three on the bssis that where there's life there's hope.
Then again, doesn't the blurb talk about 'resolution to the decades old love affair between Crusher and Picard' or something along those lines?

Hope all Londoners are OK.

 

[Amelie]

Posted by LISA_t:
Hope all Londoners are OK.

It's nice to know people are thinking of us Londoners!

This one is ok, I wasn't in the city, but alot of us aren't.