^ Hmmmmmm. I sense a need for a Was Jack Crusher Bisexual? thread. 
P/C run amok...
- Thread starter Naraht
- Start date
- Status
This conversation is going in a very strange direction ...
Posted by Naraht:
Yeah, well, I think I just like the version of Jack Crusher that I made up myself. But mon capitaine helped me...
My long campaign to reclaim Jack Crusher as Picard's best friend rather than Beverly's husband is finally paying dividends.
I've not read a lot of P/C fanfic because I'm really not a Mills&Boon sort of trekker. I've tried, but I usually give up when I read 'her love for the noble frenchman' and so forth. But I take your point that it's very unreasonable to dismiss the Crusher marriage so out of hand. It's part of the One Perfect Relationship fallacy. If Picard is the Great Destiny Relationship then every other relationship was just misguided and life really doesn't work that way.
As for Dumb Jock Jack, well that's due to casting a man whose neck is bigger than his head and who displays no sense of humour whatsoever.
Ah, that's a franchise I've never really got into, for whatever reason.
You should feel free to go off on tangents, though; the rules about staying on topic are a lot more relaxed for these long running "community type" threads.
You should feel free to go off on tangents, though; the rules about staying on topic are a lot more relaxed for these long running "community type" threads.
@ Grizzly you might want to try it again, the new series is different in tone from the older stuff and possibly more accessible.
On the subject of Jack: I agree with you Mon Capitaine it is important to use All the relationships Jack Crusher is said to have as constraints on his personality. Not just the romantic relationships. Also, to be fair, Beverly did choose Jack over Picard intially so it is possible that he was in fact a better match for the younger her. Or even he fulfilled more of what she thought she wanted in a man.
Besides, Jean-Luc great friends with a person who was just a jock and nothing more? Not really a credible position to argue from.
On the subject of Jack: I agree with you Mon Capitaine it is important to use All the relationships Jack Crusher is said to have as constraints on his personality. Not just the romantic relationships. Also, to be fair, Beverly did choose Jack over Picard intially so it is possible that he was in fact a better match for the younger her. Or even he fulfilled more of what she thought she wanted in a man.
Besides, Jean-Luc great friends with a person who was just a jock and nothing more? Not really a credible position to argue from.
Re: Naraht's comments on perceptions of Jack Crusher, especially the idea that the Beverly/Jack marriage was limited because of his obsession with his career.
One little problem for believers of this view: Beverly and Picard are equally career obsessed...*g* Naraht, I snickered my way through your post, having read a fair sample of the type of fanfic to which you refer...
Actually, while we're being persnickety about fanfic perceptions vs. 'canon' (for lack of a better phrase), here are some recurring ideas which puzzle me:
-that Beverly has a raging temper. I can't think of a single episode where she completely loses it. Angry, yes, but always justified. Hot-tempered as in flying off the handle on little provocation..? Uh, no. Correct me if I'm wrong. I can't help feeling that she's been tarred with the red-headed brush.
-That Beverly always sits in one particular spot in staff meetings- close to Picard. True, she does occassionally- but she sits elsewhere just as often.
-That Beverly's always late!!!! I haven't been able to find a number of examples of this, particularly re. staff meeting. I can see why she would be late- but always late? Nah. Not professional.
This is just nitpicking, but I do have a good reason. I'm slowly getting into writing as well as reading P/C fan fic, and inevitably I'm being influenced by how other authors have characterised this pair. Consequently, I find myself returning to the original source material to verify aspects of characterisation... Any definite chapter and verse references re traits above would be welcomed!
One little problem for believers of this view: Beverly and Picard are equally career obsessed...*g* Naraht, I snickered my way through your post, having read a fair sample of the type of fanfic to which you refer...
Actually, while we're being persnickety about fanfic perceptions vs. 'canon' (for lack of a better phrase), here are some recurring ideas which puzzle me:
-that Beverly has a raging temper. I can't think of a single episode where she completely loses it. Angry, yes, but always justified. Hot-tempered as in flying off the handle on little provocation..? Uh, no. Correct me if I'm wrong. I can't help feeling that she's been tarred with the red-headed brush.
-That Beverly always sits in one particular spot in staff meetings- close to Picard. True, she does occassionally- but she sits elsewhere just as often.
-That Beverly's always late!!!! I haven't been able to find a number of examples of this, particularly re. staff meeting. I can see why she would be late- but always late? Nah. Not professional.
This is just nitpicking, but I do have a good reason. I'm slowly getting into writing as well as reading P/C fan fic, and inevitably I'm being influenced by how other authors have characterised this pair. Consequently, I find myself returning to the original source material to verify aspects of characterisation... Any definite chapter and verse references re traits above would be welcomed!
Indeed it's true! I see Beverly and Jack in some ways as having been your typical over-achieving 80s yuppie couple. They obviously thought they could have it all... Jack off on the Stargazer advancing his career, Beverly finishing up her internship, and that's when they decide to go and start a family, probably thinking that they have everything mapped out. Perhaps they were aiming to both qualify for positions on the Enterprise or another ship that accepted families on board? Only life doesn't always go according to plan...
And I think you've done a very good job in identifying some of the major fanon ideas about Beverly's personality. I do agree that some fanfic writers slight her a little bit as well... they make her appear less professional than she does on the series. Part of this is because they are dealing with her personal life, which is frankly a bit of a mess, and part of it is because fanfic writers want draaama. Also, I think sometimes they want to emphasise her differences with Picard: he is controlled, she is impetuous; he is orderly, she is disorganized; etcetera. Part of this is lazy characterisation, part of it is a desire to make the sparks fly between them.
While Beverly is certainly always justified in her anger, I would argue that she does take a more emotional approach to the issues that the Enterprise crew is faced with. She doesn't just have a viewpoint; she *feels* it. Some of this is actually due to the role of the ship's doctor on the show: McCoy was the same way. She also appears a bit more confrontational because of her close relationship with Picard. She's the only one of the crew that can really challenge him when she dislikes his approach to something, and she can get away with continuing to argue. We see this a lot in season one particularly.
She does have a real flare of temper on occasion. See her scene with Picard in Ethics: "I can't cure everything!"
You have it right, I think.
You're right here too. Her manner often gives the impression that she is a bit disorganized and a bit vague... she can get vague in particular when someone wants to talk to her about something that she doesn't want to discuss. So I think writers have carried that impression over to her actions. But Beverly is nothing if not scrupulously professional. Having her running in late once in a story might work well if the intention was to underscore that she was extremely upset or extremely preoccupied. But the theme is certainly overused in stories, and certainly it's wrong to turn it into a character trait.
While we're on the subject of things that Beverly doesn't do, I thought I might mention one thing that she does do. She *is* insubordinate, and there are multiple examples of this. When orders don't suit her, as in The High Ground and I, Borg, she simply ignores them and gets on with what she considers to be the medical duty at hand. Part of this is that she can take advantage of her privileged relationship with Picard; she knows that he will make exceptions for her behaviour that he wouldn't make for other people.
So, if I wanted to show Beverly as being erratic and somewhat hotheaded (which she can be), I would show her as being insubordinate rather than angry or late. The insubordination is also in pursuit of what she considers to be her duties as a physician, and this helps to put her in a somewhat better light.
Sorry for going on for so long.
Agreed, and hats off to the writers for keeping this trait going throughout the series, from as early as "Symbiosis" to as late as "Homeward". Basically she has that philosophy of "do no harm" which I think is one of the things which makes "Ethics" such a strong episode, as she's put into a position where that philosophy may actually be incorrect.
G
Guest
Guest
Posted by LISA_t:
Re: "-that Beverly has a raging temper. I can't think of a single episode where she completely loses it. Angry, yes, but always justified. Hot-tempered as in flying off the handle on little provocation..? Uh, no. Correct me if I'm wrong. I can't help feeling that she's been tarred with the red-headed brush......"
My Schpeel-
I was waiting for her to go crazy on one of the very last episodes of season one when Picard takes his old lady friend to the holodeck in France and is obviously still in love with this woman. Better yet when the hussy kisses his cheek on sick bay when she walks out. You know she's not happy wed to a crazy doctor investing time and space and yearns for the Picard. Beverly needs to defend her turf really.
Beverly and insubordination:
Lovely. We have examples in Symbiosis, High Ground (lovely lovely eg there. Esp JLP's response) I, Borg ... can someone list them, please, so I can watch them all. Thanks for the reminder of Ethics- that's almost my favourite Bev episode- as that is a nice display of temper if not insub. BTW, 'Who watches the watchers' has a Prime Directive argument /exchange between BC and JLP too.
*grateful to DVD collection of all series except two for uh, 'research' (AKA procrastination) purposes*
Lovely. We have examples in Symbiosis, High Ground (lovely lovely eg there. Esp JLP's response) I, Borg ... can someone list them, please, so I can watch them all. Thanks for the reminder of Ethics- that's almost my favourite Bev episode- as that is a nice display of temper if not insub. BTW, 'Who watches the watchers' has a Prime Directive argument /exchange between BC and JLP too.
*grateful to DVD collection of all series except two for uh, 'research' (AKA procrastination) purposes*
You could say right off the bat that Beverly was disobeying Picard from the start. In Encounter At Farpoint she brings Wesley to the bridge. Directly disobeying his order of no children on the bridge. It's funny how she gets around this by telling him that he is on the turbolift and not the bridge. 
A big insubordination Bev episode is Suspicions. In that one she performs an autopsy on a Ferengi scientist, disobeying Picard when he tells her not to because of Ferengi customs.
A big insubordination Bev episode is Suspicions. In that one she performs an autopsy on a Ferengi scientist, disobeying Picard when he tells her not to because of Ferengi customs.
There's also a display of annoyance with Jellico in "Chain Of Command, Part 2", although she doesn't directly question his orders there.
Now to this day I don't understand how she got away with that one. The family were going to be pissed off with her and it was bound to get political. Just because she proved he was murdered would have cut very little ice. I don't think Picard was her problem in this one. He suspended her to protect her.
I don't know, given that she salvaged his reputation they might have decided to let it go.
Perhaps she did have to go through it but they just let her off?
^ You sound like my mother!
Anyway, I was thinking about the P/C in Violations the other day. Are we supposed to assume that the memories are all 'real' until the moment the badguy (I forget his name) turns up to interfere in them? In which case, Beverly's memories of Picard showing her Jack's body don't quite seem right for me. There's nobody else present, they seem to be smiling far too much - it's practically a murderous pact.
What's supposed to be going on in that flashback?
Anyway, I was thinking about the P/C in Violations the other day. Are we supposed to assume that the memories are all 'real' until the moment the badguy (I forget his name) turns up to interfere in them? In which case, Beverly's memories of Picard showing her Jack's body don't quite seem right for me. There's nobody else present, they seem to be smiling far too much - it's practically a murderous pact.
What's supposed to be going on in that flashback?
A compliment, I trust ...
I'd assume it to be a slightly dreamlike version of what really happened. I have to say that they did seem fairly grim to me; any smiling I would theorise is an attempt to put a brave face on the matter.
I hope you don't mind me just sort of joining in here....been hanging around here for a while but only came out of the wood-work yesterday. This will be post number 4!
Re: Violations. It always struck me that the expressions were ones of shock or that awful numbness that happens when someone dies suddenly.
It is hard to tell because the atmsosphere has been deliberately made more eerie for plot purposes but it always (at least to me) seemed like emotional paralysis, especially Bev.
Oh...one more thing. I am a Bev fan.
Re: Violations. It always struck me that the expressions were ones of shock or that awful numbness that happens when someone dies suddenly.
It is hard to tell because the atmsosphere has been deliberately made more eerie for plot purposes but it always (at least to me) seemed like emotional paralysis, especially Bev.
Oh...one more thing. I am a Bev fan.
- Status
Similar threads
