P/C run amok...

[Gold Grizzly]

Theoretically, what sorts of stories would you have liked for them to write involving Jack?

 

[Matthew1970]

Posted by Naraht:
I want more about Jack, damn it!

A thought has just struck me - who was captain of the alternative Enterprise in 'Tapestry'? Could there have be any mileage in a scenario where Jack and Bev are the top couple on the ship, and Jean-Luc is a lonely perpetual lieutenant junior grade?

Probably not, but something to cast in the way of the P/C experts here for more development...

 

[Gold Grizzly]

They did name Thomas Holloway as the captain in the episode.

 

[Matthew1970]

Posted by Gold Grizzly:
They did name Thomas Holloway as the captain in the episode.

So they did. There goes another idea.

 

[Gold Grizzly]

One can ignore such details in fanfics, of course.

 

[Naraht]

Posted by Gold Grizzly:
Theoretically, what sorts of stories would you have liked for them to write involving Jack?

Well, that's the difficult bit. I've seen a lot of fanfics along the line of "we discover that Jack survived, but it actually turned out to be an alien impersonating him". And that plot seems (to me) just too cheesy. I suppose one option would have been to do Tapestry with Jack instead of Corey Zweller, as I tried in one of my own fanfics. But really I would have settled for seeing him less, and hearing about him more. Beverly and Wesley seemed to discuss him often enough, but I would have liked to hear Beverly and Jean-Luc talking about him a little more, perhaps reminiscing, perhaps resolving some of their feelings about his death in Attached. It might have been more interesting than Jean-Luc's simple confession of love... I know mon capitaine would have liked it more.

As for Jack and Bev being the top couple on board the Enterprise in another timeline, I say bring it on! The only problem (besides the Thomas Hallaway thing) is that Jack is canonically quite a bit younger than Picard, so you would have to do quite a bit of explaining as to why Jack was promoted over him. But we are an ingenious bunch; I'm sure someone can come up with something.

 

[mon capitaine]

Posted by Naraht:
Beverly and Wesley seemed to discuss him often enough...

Actually I'm not sure they mentioned him other than The Bonding and Family?

...but I would have liked to hear Beverly and Jean-Luc talking about him a little more, perhaps reminiscing, perhaps resolving some of their feelings about his death in Attached. It might have been more interesting than Jean-Luc's simple confession of love... I know mon capitaine would have liked it more.

Yes, maybe I'm just not fangirl romance fixated enough to enjoy Attached . Jack interests me because he is about the only person we've ever heard of who is a Friend Of Picard. There are not a lot of friends of Picard. He's no Kirk when it comes to hanging out with other people. There's no call me Jim about Picard. We never see him make new friends. So I shall remain forever curious as to what type of man Jack Crusher was.

 

[Naraht]

Posted by mon capitaine:

Posted by Naraht:
Beverly and Wesley seemed to discuss him often enough...

Actually I'm not sure they mentioned him other than The Bonding and Family?

OK, maybe it just seemed like a lot compared to how often P and C talk about Jack. He really is the skeleton in the cupboard between those two, isn't he?

Jack interests me because he is about the only person we've ever heard of who is a Friend Of Picard. There are not a lot of friends of Picard. He's no Kirk when it comes to hanging out with other people. There's no call me Jim about Picard. We never see him make new friends. So I shall remain forever curious as to what type of man Jack Crusher was.

He wasn't quite the only Friend of Picard; neither was he the last to die. We've got Walker Keel and Corey Zweller as well (I assume that the latter is dead, or we would have heard more about him), not to mention Donald Varley of the Yamato, with whom Picard seemed quite chummy, if not actually bosom buddies. It's just that Picard keeps losing them and not replacing them.

Really Beverly is much shorter of friends than Jean-Luc is. Besides one work colleague (Deanna) and one mentor (Dalen Quaice), who has she got?

They are both very lonely people, with a shared history of loss, and I think this is what both bonds them together, and keeps them from getting closer.

 

[mon capitaine]

Posted by Naraht:
Really Beverly is much shorter of friends than Jean-Luc is. Besides one work colleague (Deanna) and one mentor (Dalen Quaice), who has she got?

They are both very lonely people, with a shared history of loss, and I think this is what both bonds them together, and keeps them from getting closer.

Oh but Bev knows EVERYBODY. She maintains links to Starfleet Medical, she has her little plays that she's constantly pushing people into, she's always up on the latest gossip on sickbay. I really don't think she detaches herself in the same way that Picard does.

Beverly comes across as quite socially vibrant compared to the 'always-on-duty-and-how-do-you-feel-about-that' Troi.

 

[Naraht]

^^^ Beverly is socially outgoing, true, but many of her contacts (including girl talk with Troi) seem just a bit shallow. Acting and gossiping is one thing, but having a real, true friend (such as Jack and Walker obviously were to Jean-Luc) is quite another. Beverly's never been shown to have that. And somehow, she strikes me as the sort of woman who might be more comfortble with men than with other women.

 

[Gold Grizzly]

It's hard to judge how many friends Crusher might have, of course, because she didn't get as much screen time as most of the other characters and therefore had less opportunities to introduce them. She does call Dr. Quaice "one of my oldest friends", though, so I guess that she's got a few more unnamed friends from that far back.

 

[mon capitaine]

Doesn't Picard count as Beverly's friend? Given the number of times we've seen them together surely that must count as a rich varied friendship.

I just find it hard to visualise poor little Bev without a friend in the world, when she's out dancing, acting, writing, bullying, breakfasting and wearing the blue jumper - all classic signs of an outgoing and social person.

It's not like she stays in nights, staring out the window, waiting for Wesley to phone.

 

[Naraht]

^^^ Oh yes, the blue jumper is often used by psychologists as a marker of a well-adjusted and outgoing individual.

On another subject, I wrote a little rant today on the subject of the role of Jack Crusher in P/C fanfiction, and I thought I might share it with the world:

"Why no love for Jack Crusher?"

I can understand why most P/C writers aren't, potentially at least, particular fans of Jack Crusher. If you want that P/C romance, then Jack's role is basically to die heroically, and get out of the way. No real need for more characterisation than that, let alone sympathy. On the other hand, presumably people who follow P/C are doing so because they like either Picard or (Beverly) Crusher, and perhaps even both. In this case, it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect a certain amount of sympathetic treatment for the man who was, after all, Jean-Luc's best friend, and Beverly's husband. Really...

This mini-essay was sparked off by the number of stories that seem to totally discount Jack, in one way or another. There are a few different types to consider

Many fairly good writers seem to take an approach something like this: "What she had had with Jack had always been good, satisfying enough, if never particularly exciting. From the moment that she had seen his friend, though, she felt a pull towards him that she had been unable to ignore. Ever since that first sight of Jean-Luc, deep in her heart, she knew. She had made the wrong decision." Jack is dull, Jean-Luc is better. Fair enough, I guess. Only this sort of approach, in my view, is motivated by a fallacy: in order for the P/C romance to be true and deep and lovely, Beverly has to have not loved Jack very much, or at least not loved him in the true and deep and lovely way that she loves Jean-Luc. Which, frankly, I find pretty simplistic. I would think that in one lifetime, Beverly might possibly have room in her heart to love two men equally, if in different ways. Let's be optimistic here.

Then we have the view that the Crushers' marriage was doomed to fail anyway. Far from being stable but dull, it is actually based on lots and lots of HOT SEX, and not much else. They married in haste and are repenting at leisure, with Jack being pretty much wedded to his career, and their only real bond being the HOT SEX that they have when he is home on leave. Well, there's one aspect of this picture that I don't object to very much, and I'm sure you can guess what it is! But as for the rest of it... first of all, we have no evidence that Jack and Beverly's marriage was in trouble before Jack died. I suppose you can argue successfully that the account of her marriage that Beverly presents to her son is the idealised, cleaned-up version that you would tell to the son of a hero. Fair enough. But still, I'm not sure I like it. Even worse, this sort of story usually leads to Jean-Luc and Bev having a mad, passionate one-night stand sometime when Jack isn't able to make it home on leave. Which is wrong in so many ways, but the way that I'm talking about is the view that it gives of Jack. Jean-Luc is sensitive and deep and soulful; Jack is just good in bed, but apparently not good enough to keep Beverly from straying into the arms of his best friend. Ah well.

Finally, this leads me on to the view that all of these stories take of Jack Crusher's character. He is very often portrayed as obsessed with his career--fair enough, although I don't agree with many P/C writers in believing that this would lead him to be neglectful to his family. More troubling is the view that Jack is really kind of dumb. He never discusses art and literature with Beverly; in fact, they never really have many meaningful conversations at all. They just sleep together. Jack is the handsome all-American football playing jock, and not much else. Now, there are two problems with this view. First, Beverly, although very intelligent, is not exactly an intellectual: I can see her wanting someone to talk to, but not exactly pining away for a literary communion of souls. Second, Jack is not only Beverly's husband, but Jean-Luc's best friend, and while we can see Beverly perhaps falling for the allure of the HOT SEX, we'd like to think that Jean-Luc saw something else in him. Possibly?

Well, think what you like of the man, but I personally find him an interesting character, who deserves perhaps a bit more respect than he's getting from those writers who just want to get P/C into bed as fast as possible. Well, let me know what you think. If people ask, I may well even post links to some examples of the sort of story that I'm talking about. If I dare...

 

[Spider]

Please excuse me for dropping in like this, but just thought that since I like the Picard/Beverly thing I would happen into the thread and voice my support for something I wish would have happened on screen.

 

[Naraht]

^^^ We're always glad to see another true believer, spider.

 

[Gold Grizzly]

That all seems fair enough, although I guess that it's aimed more at fanfic writers, of which the TrekBBS appears to be somewhat short.

You're in the unusual position of being interested by a television character despite finding all of his on-screen appearances disappointing!

 

[Spider]

Posted by Naraht:
^^^ We're always glad to see another true believer, spider.

I guess there are a lot of "ships" in the Star Trek universe, but quite frankly the P/C one was the one that I most would have liked to have seen. I didn't watch much of VOY because the only two characters that I actually liked on the entire crew were Paris and Torres, and they got hooked up. To bad I missed most of it.

Riker and Beverly were my favorite characters on TNG, and I am glad that no one ever thought of those two getting hooked up. I really can't bear that thought!

I suppose it's nice to see Riker and Troi finally being together, but frankly, I prefer Riker to be like my other great Star Trek hero, Kirk. A ladies man and not tied down to anyone.

Picard and Beverly just made sense to me.

 

[Naraht]

Posted by Gold Grizzly:
You're in the unusual position of being interested by a television character despite finding all of his on-screen appearances disappointing!

Yeah, well, I think I just like the version of Jack Crusher that I made up myself. But mon capitaine helped me...

Posted by spider1:
Riker and Beverly were my favorite characters on TNG, and I am glad that no one ever thought of those two getting hooked up. I really can't bear that thought!

Don't watch The Host then!

Seriously, in that episode Beverly seemed as disturbed by the idea of a romantic relationship with Riker as you do! I think TNG did an excellent job of creating a real brother/sister relationship with those two, with some closeness and teasing, but no hint of anything more. (Except possibly in Encounter at Farpoint... Riker seems to be checking her out in their first scene together. But who wouldn't?) Anyway, the only person I know who thinks that there should have been a R/C thing is Anna Yolei. I'm very glad that they didn't go that way.

Picard and Beverly just made sense to me.

Indeed. They were already close friends, and if they had got together, it would have been a very mature relationship, in comparison to others that I could name...

 

[Matthew1970]

Naraht, is that Jack Crusher on the right in your latest avatar? If so, Who is he with?

*slinks away after making such an obvious remark*

 

[Naraht]

^^^ Hadn't you realised that Jack was a time traveller? He didn't die, he was just reassigned...