P/C run amok...

[Naraht]

Posted by Elenmir:
Also, I one thing that let me know that it was okay to Picard that Beverly was comfortable in his "private" space was at the end of the episode "The Chase" where she practically lies down on his couch. Someone that you only have breakfast with doesn't seem like enough for him for her to do that unless she was feeling ill.

They worked extremely well together in "The Chase", and that was a very cool scene. It's also entirely in character for Beverly; she's always sitting on his desk or putting her feet up on things. So in a sense, I'm not sure that it's quite as special as you make it out to be, because Picard is aware of how casual she can be. Having said that, I doubt she would be lounging on anyone else's couch! (Note the nice detail of how her labcoat is draped over one of his chairs.)

Does anyone else remember hearing about "Arsenal of Freedom" being the lead-in to a P/C romance story. I guess it could work as a hurt/comfort way, though I'm not sure I'd want a relationship to start out like that. However, I wouldn't have minded it starting openly at some point.

This is confirmed in the TNG Companion; it was supposed to be a romance, but Gene Roddenberry didn't want it, and so the idea was dropped. It wasn't dropped very well, in my opinion; all of the P/C scenes play as if they're building up to something that is no longer there. I doubt that it would have been a hurt/comfort exactly... more like a "Jean-Luc, there's something I've been meaning to tell you" that actually succeeds. Given that Beverly thinks she may die there...

 

[mon capitaine]

I honestly can't remember the differences between the sets, but is it clear that they are at Picard's? Do they always do breakfast and hang out at his place or do they alternate?

 

[Gold Grizzly]

Concerning Picard's statement in "Attached" that he lost romantic interest in Crusher over the years, I wonder when this happens? Is there a specific point where he starts to show less interest?

 

[Naraht]

Posted by Gold Grizzly:
Concerning Picard's statement in "Attached" that he lost romantic interest in Crusher over the years, I wonder when this happens? Is there a specific point where he starts to show less interest?

I think that both of them are portrayed as showing less interest in season three than they did in season one... but other than that, it's difficult to say, really. Since there are so few episodes dealing with their relationship, we don't have very many data points. It may be that, once they start having breakfast together, he starts seeing her more as a friend and less solely as a romantic object. On the other hand, I don't believe that Picard's statement is entirely truthful either; at least, he does seem interested in her during All Good Things.

And why does it seem so quiet in here all of a sudden? Has mon capitaine been kidnapped by the Anti-Shippiness Squad?

 

[Gold Grizzly]

Posted by Naraht:
On the other hand, I don't believe that Picard's statement is entirely truthful either; at least, he does seem interested in her during All Good Things.

It would be hard to lie under those circumstances, with her reading his thoughts. I guess if it's a lie which he believes is the truth, maybe.

And why does it seem so quiet in here all of a sudden? Has mon capitaine been kidnapped by the Anti-Shippiness Squad?

They'll be after you next ... !

 

[Naraht]

Posted by Gold Grizzly:

And why does it seem so quiet in here all of a sudden? Has mon capitaine been kidnapped by the Anti-Shippiness Squad?

They'll be after you next ... !

But I'm not really a P/C shipper, you see! I just post here because... erm... I have nothing better to do! Please, put away the straightjacket!

 

[mon capitaine]

OK OK I'm back.

When did Picard start to lose interest in Crusher? Before E@F I'd say. That first season is bascially her chasing him. There's only maybe The Big Goodbye where he 'forgets' himself for a couple of moments. Otherwise it's one-way traffic.

 

[Gold Grizzly]

He did imply in "Attached" that he still had feelings for her when she came aboard though.

 

[mon capitaine]

^ Yeah but they backfitted that in. Don't make me rant about that episode changing premises again. Watching E@F Picard is not behaving like a man who was ever in love with Dr C.

 

[Naraht]

Posted by mon capitaine:
Watching E@F Picard is not behaving like a man who was ever in love with Dr C.

Oh, now, surely this is arguable? Personally I think there's some subtext there, not that you would expect me to say otherwise. I'm inclined to say that he had simply convinced himself that there was no future in any feelings that he had for her, and put the idea firmly out of his mind. He wanted her off his ship in E@F partly so that he wouldn't have to deal with all of that again. You can't tell me that all his uncomfortableness in that episode is the result of his having to deal with his friend's widow, whom he barely knows. Surely plenty of people have died under Picard's command. What's different, then, about his attitude towards Beverly? Hmm?

 

[mon capitaine]

Posted by Naraht:
You can't tell me that all his uncomfortableness in that episode is the result of his having to deal with his friend's widow, whom he barely knows.

Oh sure I can. He feels responsible for her plight. He feels guilty about Jack's death. And she's brought that annoying brat with her. Actually that last bit's harsh - he spends more time looking at Wesley than Bev in that episode.

 

[Gold Grizzly]

Posted by mon capitaine:
^ Yeah but they backfitted that in. Don't make me rant about that episode changing premises again. Watching E@F Picard is not behaving like a man who was ever in love with Dr C.

This could lead to the TNG forum's first argument about canon ...

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Posted by Gold Grizzly:
Concerning Picard's statement in "Attached" that he lost romantic interest in Crusher over the years, I wonder when this happens? Is there a specific point where he starts to show less interest?

He's a terrible liar; she just didn't call him on it in "Attached," though perhaps she should have...

 

[Gold Grizzly]

He knew full well that he couldn't get away with a lie in that situation though, so why do it?

 

[Peach Wookiee]

^He knew. But chances are she didn't feel like torturing him about it.

 

[Gold Grizzly]

So would you say that he was interested in her throughout the seven years?

 

[Naraht]

Posted by Peach Wookiee:

Posted by Gold Grizzly:
Concerning Picard's statement in "Attached" that he lost romantic interest in Crusher over the years, I wonder when this happens? Is there a specific point where he starts to show less interest?

He's a terrible liar; she just didn't call him on it in "Attached," though perhaps she should have...

Exactly. We can back this up based solely on the evidence within Attached. Why would he have a romantic candlelight dinner with her if he had lost his feelings for her? Why would he say, and I quote: "now that we know that we have feelings for each other... perhaps we shouldn't be afraid to explore those feelings"? What do you mean, Jean-Luc? The feelings that you've lost already?

I really don't think you can deny that he was lying, and that they both probably knew it at the time. (Although if Beverly didn't, that's a good reason for her to have behaved the way she did at the end.)

 

[mon capitaine]

I always thought that Bev shows up in a very provocative skirt, so I doubt it was always her intention to dump him. Unless she's really just a big flirt who's no good at comittment either.

BTW, nice sig.

 

[Naraht]

Yes, I note the provocative skirt. I also note his provocative top, and all those candles. Let's be perfectly honest with ourselves here: both of them were interested. If they had lost interest, they certainly had regained it by that point. What we're seeing here is a lack of initiative, or courage, not a lack of... you know...

Dare you try to argue with me about that?

 

[mon capitaine]

Posted by Naraht:
Dare you try to argue with me about that?

Probably not.

I just find Attached to be such a frustrating tease all the way through. Did we get to hear the end of Jean-Luc there's something I've been meaning to say to you... No. In fact that never even came up. Instead it's all Picard bleating about a past history which frankly doesn't square with his performance in Season One.

Was there ever ever a TNG episode which promised so much and then pulled back again? Surely P and C should work out all their mis-timings and misunderstandings if they are telepathically linked? Surely they're going to rock the PG rating as a result? But no. Not at the campsite and not back on the Enterprise.

I feel as led on as Picard looks when he blows out the candles. No wonder it's more satisfying making up our own stuff about these two.