Hmm, I think it was Daren who suggested that she leave the ship. I haven't watched that one for a while though.
P/C run amok...
- Thread starter Naraht
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I've come in late on this thread so I apologise if this has already been talked about.
When it comes to commitment isn't Picard ready for that by Generations? I mean he had that family "dream" in the Nexus so wouldn't that mean he would be ready to settle down with Bev by Nemesis? Something that never sat right with me in his Nexus experience was how his wife had red hair. IMO that just solidified his feelings for Bev.
When it comes to commitment isn't Picard ready for that by Generations? I mean he had that family "dream" in the Nexus so wouldn't that mean he would be ready to settle down with Bev by Nemesis? Something that never sat right with me in his Nexus experience was how his wife had red hair. IMO that just solidified his feelings for Bev.
Thanks for the welcomes! 
I agree with you CrazyMaryT that the Nexus setting didn't sit well with me either. First, there was a ton of relatively small children and even though he wanted a family somewhere in his mind that seems like the Nexus was overcompensating. And also the redheaded wife (who actually was in another TNG episode ... she lost her husband. Hmm, I can't remember her name!) definitely had to represent something about Beverly. Especially to me, since everything that had happened in the Picard's "present" in AGT things, that only he remembers, seem to point towards something finally brewing. I can wish it was her at least in some reality.
As for other conversations, I think that they are both to blame for nothing ever happening or happening at snails pace. For every moment we saw them close, there seems to be two more with one of them keeping the other at arms length. It's sort of like an unconscious game they keep up. I personally think that after they had reached a comfortable working relationship and a solid friendship, I don't think either of them wanted to risk changing that status. Fear, laziness, fraternization protocol, and respect for each other (and probably Jack in there somewhere) kept them from taking the next big step in their relationship. I wish they would've risked a bit more, because I think P/C is so dynamic and has a ton of potential!
I agree with you CrazyMaryT that the Nexus setting didn't sit well with me either. First, there was a ton of relatively small children and even though he wanted a family somewhere in his mind that seems like the Nexus was overcompensating. And also the redheaded wife (who actually was in another TNG episode ... she lost her husband. Hmm, I can't remember her name!) definitely had to represent something about Beverly. Especially to me, since everything that had happened in the Picard's "present" in AGT things, that only he remembers, seem to point towards something finally brewing. I can wish it was her at least in some reality.
As for other conversations, I think that they are both to blame for nothing ever happening or happening at snails pace. For every moment we saw them close, there seems to be two more with one of them keeping the other at arms length. It's sort of like an unconscious game they keep up. I personally think that after they had reached a comfortable working relationship and a solid friendship, I don't think either of them wanted to risk changing that status. Fear, laziness, fraternization protocol, and respect for each other (and probably Jack in there somewhere) kept them from taking the next big step in their relationship. I wish they would've risked a bit more, because I think P/C is so dynamic and has a ton of potential!
Well I think there's actually a bit of tension and misunderstanding between the two in the scene which is what makes it fun. I agree with Grizzly that Picard seems to be assuming some sort of clerical error that would put her aboard his ship and that he was trying to be a nice guy and not put her in an awkard position. I think Bev is interpreting this incorrectly as a sign that he doesn't want her (she does give good bristle doesn't she).
I guess your personal viewpoint may well be affected by who's side you want to take?
I agree with both of you that Picard's Victorianized fantasy was just... not very Picard. The only part of it that he seemed at all comfortable with was the young boy, and I must say that as much as I admire Patrick Stewart's acting, he just didn't convey the impression that this was the sort of daydream that Picard would have. I don't blame him for it, though.
I do think that there is a shift in Picard's character over the series, and that by the time of Attached, AGT, and especially by Generations, he is thinking in more family-and-commitment terms. Part of this is a shift in how the character was written, but I think it's also reasonable to understand this as a natural part of growing older and considering the choices he's made.
I also agree with Matthew1970 that Picard *thought* his declaration to Beverly at the end of Attached was much more demonstrative than she understood it to be. He was being as emotionally open as he knew how; she expected something more. There's a certain element of tragic misunderstanding in their whole relationship.
You're just annoyed that he's taking my character's side and not yours.
I think what's also emerging is that Picard perceives a strong distinction between his public and private roles, which in practice are not so clear cut. Even his breakfasts with Beverly, while 'private', have become part of his 'public' routine. At the end of TNG, Picard's joining the poker game is perhaps meant to show that he is coming to terms with the intermingling of hs public and private personas. However, it looks like it's too late for him and Beverly, going by the movies.
^ It's not about sides is it? 
Anyhoo on the Nexus malarkey:
Count me in too. It was gruesome. I can see why he'd want to leave. For everyone else the Nexus seems to take them to situations with real family and relationships. Is Picard so sad that so his wildest dreams don't involve anyone he has known in real life? Doesn't look very French either.
Why Victorian anyway? Is this the myth that that era represents Happy Family Life?
Anyhoo on the Nexus malarkey:
Count me in too. It was gruesome. I can see why he'd want to leave. For everyone else the Nexus seems to take them to situations with real family and relationships. Is Picard so sad that so his wildest dreams don't involve anyone he has known in real life? Doesn't look very French either.
Why Victorian anyway? Is this the myth that that era represents Happy Family Life?
I think that his fantasy may have been a result of what he learnt just before going into the Nexus, rather than an ongoing one that he'd been having for a while.
As far as it being Victorian, wasn't that like his own childhood? I got the impression in "Family" that the Picards have been in something of a timewarp for a few hundred years.
P.S. I'm on Picard's side!
As far as it being Victorian, wasn't that like his own childhood? I got the impression in "Family" that the Picards have been in something of a timewarp for a few hundred years.
P.S. I'm on Picard's side!
I want to hear more about this tension between the public and private Picard. You're definitely on to something here... Vash, for example, is someone whom he finds interesting when he's away from the Enterprise , but he is extremely uneasy about seeing her in the context of his captaincy.
But about the breakfasts; what evidence do we have for saying that they've become part of his public routine? The only person that we know to be aware of them is Vash, which is not too surprising. As for the rest of the crew, I don't think Picard is trying to keep it a secret, but I doubt he would see any reason to talk about it either.
A good example of this was in "Samaritan Snare", where he had his operation performed off-ship so as not to appear weak to his crew.
Ah, indeed. You have a good memory! I'm starting to believe in this idea now...
As for the Victorian thing (which I meant to come back to), I suspect that it was just used by the writers as an image of a Happy Family Life. On a deeper level, though, I suspect that Picard harbours some stereotypical ideas about what it would mean to be a Family Man. Part of this is due to his upbringing, no doubt. I suspect that part of him believes that, were he to begin a long-term relationship with someone, all the rest of it would happen without his being able to do anything about it. All of a sudden, his carefree captain days would be gone, and he would be living in France, with six children under the age of ten, and a wife who fits all of the "angel in the house" stereotypes. I don't know, perhaps I'm being hard on Picard, but I do think some of his reluctance to settle down and have a family comes from an unrealistic notion of what this would entail.
Picard always seems to consider every move as if there are eyes watching him; even private acts have to be considered in the context of his captaincy, and he wants to limit the possibilities in which his actions could be detrimental not so much to his position as captain, but to the captaincy in which his private person is subsumed. This has a bearing on the 'transfer' line from 'Encounter at Farpoint' discussed earlier in the thread.
I think that I meant, even if the breakfasts are not general knowledge, they are at least a very controlled 'private' environment in which Picard can disclose some of his innermost thoughts to Beverly. The breakfasts seem designed to emphasise the loneliness of the captaincy, rather than to counter the isolation of Picard.
Most of us seem to find Picard's Nexus fantasy out of character. I wonder what would have been in character? If they hadn't had a P/C marriage already in "All Good Things", perhaps they would have tried that here ...
Yes, perhaps. (I still haven't seen all of Generations, but will be given a copy this evening, so then will have no excuse.) Alteratively from what I gather (and my own viewing of First Contact at least) the films seem to have set out, at least, to minimise the connection between Picard and Beverly, and it might have been thought confusing to the audience to have presented beverly as part of Picard's repressed ideal of family life; but it would have been entirely appropriate for her to have been there!
Speaking of the subconscious desires of the characters, I was just thinking about the play in "Frame Of Mind", which persumably was written by Crusher. A Doctor writing a play about Doctors torturing their patients: disturbing! 
Another thing I didn't think in character was when Picard broke down in front of Troi over his brother and newphew's deaths. I really think that scene might have worked better had it been Beverly. At that stage in their relationship they might not be able to commit but something as devasting as his families death... Well I really feel that he would have had Beverly with him. Hell she would have made a point to be there for him.
^^^ I agree that she would have been there for him too. However, the way it went in Generations made some sense in that Troi was able to sense how upset he was, and thus to follow up on it. (Beverly was a little preoccupied at that point, if you remember!)
The other reason why they didn't have that scene between Picard and Beverly is that it would surely have brought up the subject of Jack's death, and they seemed to want to stay backstory-free in the movies. I'm not defending it, you understand; that's just the way it is.
The other reason why they didn't have that scene between Picard and Beverly is that it would surely have brought up the subject of Jack's death, and they seemed to want to stay backstory-free in the movies. I'm not defending it, you understand; that's just the way it is.
While Troi doesn't have too many defenders in this forum, it would have been a harsh blow for her character to miss out on a Counselling job like that.
I never pondered the title "Something for Breakfast" before, but it does seem fitting. I'm not sure why Picard was perfect for the butler role if we are thinking along that line. (unless that is something like the french maid fantasy some people have, heh)
As for the actual breakfasts, I always found those to be personal, but it was (as someone else said) a controlled setting for Picard, so he felt more comfortable letting go for a bit. They obviously did some things together off-duty, because Beverly is often his date at concerts.
Also, I one thing that let me know that it was okay to Picard that Beverly was comfortable in his "private" space was at the end of the episode "The Chase" where she practically lies down on his couch. Someone that you only have breakfast with doesn't seem like enough for him for her to do that unless she was feeling ill.
Does anyone else remember hearing about "Arsenal of Freedom" being the lead-in to a P/C romance story. I guess it could work as a hurt/comfort way, though I'm not sure I'd want a relationship to start out like that. However, I wouldn't have minded it starting openly at some point.
As for the actual breakfasts, I always found those to be personal, but it was (as someone else said) a controlled setting for Picard, so he felt more comfortable letting go for a bit. They obviously did some things together off-duty, because Beverly is often his date at concerts.
Also, I one thing that let me know that it was okay to Picard that Beverly was comfortable in his "private" space was at the end of the episode "The Chase" where she practically lies down on his couch. Someone that you only have breakfast with doesn't seem like enough for him for her to do that unless she was feeling ill.
Does anyone else remember hearing about "Arsenal of Freedom" being the lead-in to a P/C romance story. I guess it could work as a hurt/comfort way, though I'm not sure I'd want a relationship to start out like that. However, I wouldn't have minded it starting openly at some point.
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