P/C run amok...

[Naraht]

Posted by mon capitaine:
I think Crusher's main issue with Picard is that she knows he is not Mr Commitment. She might not have got the full juice on why he ran out on Janice Manhiem, but there's plenty of other examples (Vash, Nella, Anij) to force her to understand that he's rubbish at this sort of thing. It just doesn't last. Even though he admitted to actually loving Bev for a time, he then told he'd got over it. That's just not the sort of thing a girl wants to hear.

Perhaps it took a while for her to understand this (all that mooning about in season one), but when she came back from Starfleet Medical, she'd got his number.

I think you've hit on something here actually. Bev looks like she's not entirely against the idea of a relationship at the end of Attached, but she's clearly waiting for him to say something romantic and commit himself. Instead she gets "maybe we shouldn't be afraid to explore our feelings..." Pah. If he doesn't know what his feelings are after twenty years, maybe he should just chuck it in.

Beverly, although she's often in denial about her own feelings, also seems to be fairly demonstrative when she's in love. (See The Host, for instance.) It's no surprise that she doesn't quite get Picard.

(And I think that, at this stage of his life, Picard's attitude towards commitment is probably undegoing a rethink. But I have no evidence of this, of course.)

And Elenmir, welcome back to the board! It is always great to have another P/Cer around. Feel free to jump in whenever you feel ready, or even better, just interject some thoughts of your own. We need some new ideas here.

 

[mon capitaine]

*waves cheery hello to all the lurkers and occasional posters in this thread*

Just to expand on Mr Commitment for a moment and I know I've mentioned this before (hopefully not in this thread), but I think the events of The Inner Light changed Picard's view on commitment for a time. Immediately after that episode I think he was actually quite susceptible to the idea of settling down with someone because it had been such a positive experience for him on Kataan.

Unfortunately bad timing seems to be a theme of P/Cing (they never seem to have feelings for each other at the same time), and as such fate struck again when Nella Darin strode up and took advantage of his vulnerability. She was Crusher-like in the way she pushed him around and was immediately familiar with him. He even tells her about Kataan – OK it's music related but the whole happy-ever-after aspect must have been on his mind too.

It could have worked as a relationship too, but fortunately he remembered (just in the nick of time as far as P/C is concerned) all the old excuses he had for not doing The Commitment Thing and booted her off the ship. Bev dodged the bullet in not being dumped like that, but it only served to re-confirm his old determination to remain single.

 

[Naraht]

^^^ Indeed. Perhaps it can be seen as an echo of what would possibly have happened in the P/C relationship if they'd gotten together at that point. Picard is likely to be even more nervous about having Beverly under his command because of his responsibility for Jack's death, and the fact that if anything happened to her, he would likely be stuck with Wesley!

The other factor that would make Beverly doubt Picard's long-term commitment-worthiness is the way he disappeared after Jack's death. That couldn't help.

 

[mon capitaine]

^ Very true.

Remind me. Was she interested in a relationship with Picard in E@F or did it start as a result of the Naked Now?

 

[Naraht]

She must have already been interested in him before The Naked Now... I assume that the feelings she expressed while intoxicated were her own. But I doubt that she realised she felt that way before; she is, after all, the queen of denial.

 

[mon capitaine]

I'm just musing that Naked Now rather surprised her too.

Everyone else seems to get over (go into denial about) what happened. Bev however broods for the first season wondering if the attraction she tried to act upon was in any way real.

Or I'm making stuff up again.

 

[Naraht]

Hmm, no, I think that's a good way of looking at it. Why does Picard, then, seem so oblivious to her interest in him? Is he so uncomfortable with the idea that he is just ignoring it? Is he also worried that, given his pattern with women, it would just end badly?

 

[FrontierTrek]

He may appear oblivious, but I'd bet anything he knows exactly how she feels. It always struck me that he feigned ignorance to protect his position as Commanding Officer. We already know from Lessons he holds major consternation about relationships with crew serving under him.

Considering this guy is in charge of the biggest and best ship in the fleet, a representative of his own race along with countless others and in charge of over 1,000 people, I'd say how he's viewed by others is very important to him. Not to say he's self conscious about others' perceptions, but he sure as hell doesn't want his private life spread about the ship (à la Captain's Holiday)...

 

[mon capitaine]

^ Excellent points.

And lets not forget the horrible prospect of having to hang out with Rainbow-shirted Season One Wesley at the breakfast table. She's a single mother with a very demanding child, that's a huge obstacle for a guy that doesn't like kids. Better to promote that boy off his ship and then make a move.

 

[Naraht]

Posted by FrontierTrek:
It always struck me that he feigned ignorance to protect his position as Commanding Officer. We already know from Lessons he holds major consternation about relationships with crew serving under him.

Exactly. I'm always having to remind myself how he tried to get her transferred off the ship way back when... even friendship was a bit too much for him at that stage.

 

[Gold Grizzly]

Posted by Naraht:
Bev looks like she's not entirely against the idea of a relationship at the end of Attached, but she's clearly waiting for him to say something romantic and commit himself. Instead she gets "maybe we shouldn't be afraid to explore our feelings..." Pah. If he doesn't know what his feelings are after twenty years, maybe he should just chuck it in.

I interpreted that as a pretty clear invitation from him to begin a relationship. I think she knows him well enough by this stage not to expect him to do anything too forward. This may have been her big chance, but she elected not to take it ...

 

[Matthew1970]

Posted by Gold Grizzly:

I interpreted that as a pretty clear invitation from him to begin a relationship. I think she knows him well enough by this stage not to expect him to do anything too forward. This may have been her big chance, but she elected not to take it ...

My interpretation as well, Gold Grizzly - Jean-Luc believes in a certain cautious decorum appropriate to a European - perhaps a more British model than French, though - but with these words he fails to meet Beverly's ideal, because she takes him very literally.

 

[FrontierTrek]

Posted by Naraht:
Exactly. I'm always having to remind myself how he tried to get her transferred off the ship way back when... even friendship was a bit too much for him at that stage.

Right. I was thinking the same - considering the rather awkward conversation he had in Farpoint and her classic "independent career woman" response.

Taking that into account, the year apart in Season 2 most likely did Picard some good - he was given the chance to form a relationship with his senior officers without Bev being on the doorstep to remind him about unresolved feelings and the like. That way, by the time Season 3 comes around, he's sufficiently settled in, isn't as concerned about his public image, and is free to start making eyes at her in staff briefings

 

[Gold Grizzly]

Did he try to transfer her off the ship? I had the impression that he opposed her joining in the first place, but this is slightly different.

I seem to be in the minority fighting Picard's corner here!

 

[FrontierTrek]

Posted by Gold Grizzly:
Did he try to transfer her off the ship? I had the impression that he opposed her joining in the first place, but this is slightly different.

I seem to be in the minority fighting Picard's corner here!

Well his statement in Farpoint went something like "I wouldn't oppose a transfer", or something to that effect (someone please tell me if that's wrong). I know it was abrupt enough to make me sit up and think he was an unfeeling piece of work...

 

[Gold Grizzly]

Ah, but the reason he said that was because he assumed that she wanted a transfer. There was no improper conduct from him implied in "Encounter At Farpoint", although there may have been in "Attached", which I think somewhat goes against the intent of that earlier episode.

 

[FrontierTrek]

^ I'm not so sure. I know I was under no impression she wanted a transfer from her behaviour before that scene. I'd agree though that he doesn't show any signs of "improper conduct" through his body language or tone of voice when he's offering her the relocation.

Still, I can't get past the fact that something about that scene has never sat right with me, there's definitely some reading between the lines to be done...

 

[Gold Grizzly]

I'd agree that she hasn't asked for a transfer; I think that he just incorrectly assumes that she wants one because she won't want be around him (because of the Jack connection). Innocent mistake!

 

[FrontierTrek]

^ Yes, that's more than plausible. I was of that school of thought for the first couple of times I watched the episode. Trouble is when you start looking at the body language of the characters later on you start reading a lot more into things that are more than likely completely innocent

 

[Naraht]

Wow! I go away for one evening (shopping for a Tolkien Society banquet on Saturday), and the P/C thread just explodes with activity!

I will consider all of these thoughts further and get back to you. My instinctive reading of E@F, however, is simply that Picard was uncomfortable having Beverly serving under him, and thus assumed that she would be uncomfortable with it too. He actually was trying to anticipate her feelings. Nothing wrong with his conduct... it only becomes wrong with Nella Daren, when his uncomfortableness results in the end of her career on the Enterprise. As I've mentioned before, Beverly may have observed and learned from the Daren incident, and decided to keep her distance.