P/C run amok...

[webb3201]

Posted by Naraht:

Posted by Sib76:
Being a biology major, it irks me when I see the idea of genetics being ignored. I know this can sound like a petty complaint, but the actor that played Jack had blue/green eyes. Come on, if I were to believe that he was Wesley's father, he should have had brown eyes.

Ah, the vexed eye colour issue. Plenty of fanfiction written by the "Jean-Luc is Wesley's father" crowd has used the blue eyes thing as a key element of their argument. Usually, sometime around Wesley's 20th birthday, Jean-Luc finally remembers his elementary biology, and starts to get a wee bit suspicious...

I don't buy that argument, but I agree that it was definitely a major mistake on the part of the casting people. Somehow I think that the blue eyes were used to reinforce the image that they were conveying of Jack: the handsome blue-eyed boy, too good to live long, and all that. But they could have done that easily by just writing the character better. Alas...

Sorry to jump in late...my inference was that Blue Eyed parents cannot have brown eyed kids? I had never heard this before and with some cursory research, I found this note that states they can. Can someone elaborate on this? I am a blue eyed son of brown eyed parent, so I know that way works.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/aprilholladay/2004-10-14-wonderquest_x.htm

 

[Gold Grizzly]

Whereabouts would that second scene have taken place?

 

[WillsBabe]

Posted by Naraht:[/b]

Didn't you realise that they got together immediately after AGT? They were having a little spat during Generations, and broke up right before First Contact. This explains why Picard was in such a bad mood for the whole of that movie, and why Beverly, in a typical midlife-crisis move, had dyed her hair blonde.

Oh, I once read a great, unusual fanfic called Friends and Crewmates that had a smiliar-ish plot to this. (Bev evan dyes her hair!) It was lightly written and featured Bev and Riker having a brief, enjoyable fling before she finds her way back to the good captain.

 

[Naraht]

Posted by webb3201:
Sorry to jump in late...my inference was that Blue Eyed parents cannot have brown eyed kids? I had never heard this before and with some cursory research, I found this note that states they can. Can someone elaborate on this? I am a blue eyed son of brown eyed parent, so I know that way works.

Ah... interesting. Thanks for the information; that makes me feel a lot better!

Posted by WillsBabe:
Posted by Naraht:

Didn't you realise that they got together immediately after AGT? They were having a little spat during Generations, and broke up right before First Contact. This explains why Picard was in such a bad mood for the whole of that movie, and why Beverly, in a typical midlife-crisis move, had dyed her hair blonde.

Oh, I once read a great, unusual fanfic called Friends and Crewmates that had a smiliar-ish plot to this. (Bev evan dyes her hair!) It was lightly written and featured Bev and Riker having a brief, enjoyable fling before she finds her way back to the good captain.

I'd be interested to see it, but I have to say that I can't see why Bev and Riker would have a fling at that stage in their careers. During the first season, yes; I thought he seemed interested in her during Encounter at Farpoint! And the thing that's always puzzled me is that Riker seems a lot more like Jack Crusher than Picard does.

 

[mon capitaine]

Posted by Naraht:
And the thing that's always puzzled me is that Riker seems a lot more like Jack Crusher than Picard does.

Based on what? Jack seems very serious in the scenes we see him in. More hair? Younger? Taller? American?

 

[WillsBabe]

Posted by Naraht:
I'd be interested to see it, but I have to say that I can't see why Bev and Riker would have a fling at that stage in their careers.

I think it was a "finding solace in the arms of friends" kind of thing. It does sound a bit off the wall, I suppose, but the author convinced me, and carried it off, I felt. I don't think the story is on the net, unfortunately. I think the story is in an Orion Press zine - Idylls 12, I think. I hope you enjoy it if you ever get to read it.

 

[Gold Grizzly]

Perhaps Crusher just wanted to recreate the "Odan experience" ...

 

[Naraht]

Posted by mon capitaine:

Posted by Naraht:
And the thing that's always puzzled me is that Riker seems a lot more like Jack Crusher than Picard does.

Based on what? Jack seems very serious in the scenes we see him in. More hair? Younger? Taller? American?

Erm... you have me here. There is the physical appearance: tall(er), dark, handsome, blue-eyed. And of course the nationality.

But it's more than that. I think I'm mixing up fanfic Jack with "real" Jack... oddly, not one story I've read has ever portrayed him as being serious. He's always very relaxed, easygoing, humorous; more like Riker, in other words. Don't know why. But you're right to say that we have no onscreen evidence for what everyone seems to have blithely assumed.

Posted by willsbabe:
I think it was a "finding solace in the arms of friends" kind of thing. It does sound a bit off the wall, I suppose, but the author convinced me, and carried it off, I felt. I don't think the story is on the net, unfortunately. I think the story is in an Orion Press zine - Idylls 12, I think. I hope you enjoy it if you ever get to read it.

Yes, it does sound interesting, and I'm sure I would enjoy it. A lot of the Orion Press stuff is online, but I'm sure I would have noticed that story if it had been among them. Alas.

Speaking of Odan, though, I don't think enough attention was paid to the aftermath of that. Surely Beverly would have felt pretty uncomfortable around both Riker and Picard for a while after that? Apparently when Gates McFadden did scenes with Jonathan Frakes on the bridge after "The Host", she used to turn around from time to time and whisper "Odan" at him! But then, McFadden is like that...

 

[mon capitaine]

Well I know I'm repeating myself on the Jack Crusher problem - but what the hell - why is he Picard's friend? I think the 'nice guy good egg' school of thought must evolve from a Beverly fandom perspective. I'm assuming he must be more serious because he has this connection to Picard. How on earth does anyone get to be a friend of Picards? He never invites anyone to call him Jean-Luc. Riker is not instantly Picard's friend. In fact Riker remains pretty much intimated by him to the end, so Jack must be different somehow. He must be serious about things. Perhaps even a little stuffy?

 

[Gold Grizzly]

Perhaps losing a friend under his command prompted Picard to keep everyone at a distance in the future?

 

[mon capitaine]

It's possible but Beverly describes him as a loner in E@F. Can't remember the exact words, but she says something like that to Wesley and then backs it up with 'but your father liked him very much'. Suggests he was like that before Jack's death to me.

 

[Naraht]

"Lonely," not "a loner"... "great explorers are often lonely"... which puts a slightly different spin on things.

I must say I can't see any reason why Jack should necessarily be as serious as Picard. People don't always have friends of their exact mould, and Picard seems to have been less buttoned-up in his younger years. I imagine Jack as being slightly more steady and serious version of Corey Zweller, who was after all Picard's best friend at the Academy. In terms of the development of Picard's personality, I'd be willing to bet that Jack's death had more of an influence on him than getting stabbed did. After all, Picard continued to take risks and push the envelope for years after the Nausicaan incident. If he hadn't, as Q taught us, he wouldn't be where he is.

 

[Gold Grizzly]

We do know that Jack had a slightly witty way of giving a marriage proposal.

 

[Vasquez Rocks]

Didn't you realise that they got together immediately after AGT? They were having a little spat during Generations, and broke up right before First Contact. This explains why Picard was in such a bad mood for the whole of that movie, and why Beverly, in a typical midlife-crisis move, had dyed her hair blonde.

Though it makes a lot of sense. All that action-hero stuff, yeah he's just on the rebound. I get it now. Bev not being the one to tell him he's wrong about blowing up the ship - well you wouldn't be able to if you've just broken up with the guy. He's pretty snippy towards her during that film too isn't he? Honestly I think you've struck gold!

This actually fits rather nicely! I'm considering it canon. Also the look Bev gives Lily at the end sorta like "I'm the one going back to the future with him." She was probably a little worried there for awhile that he was going to fall for her. And then there is the little fling he had with Anij in Insurrection. I chalk that up to the influence of the radiation from the rings. By the time of Nemesis they seem to be somewhat back to their comfortable relationship. What with her sitting on his desk and all. Okay, and I'm probably reading too much into it, but there is a scene around the conference table when Beverly says "He may come after you first." where they both smile at each other very warmly. Almost flirting with each other. Hmm...something might be going on here.

It would have been nice to see that last scene where she says to him "I'll save the last dance for you." Damn, why was that cut?

BTW did anyone else notice the flub in Insurrection where Beverly says that Picard was quite a dancer in his youth. In the episode Allegiance, she tells Picard that she thought he didn't like to dance.

 

[mon capitaine]

Posted by Vasquez Rocks:
BTW did anyone else notice the flub in Insurrection where Beverly says that Picard was quite a dancer in his youth. In the episode Allegiance, she tells Picard that she thought he didn't like to dance.

Yeah. Just another example of the characters' history being re-written to make it seem that Bev knew him a lot better than she did. By the time we get to Nemesis, she's practically in the Academy with him.

I really like the idea of the relationship happening after AGT and before Generations. It's so damn funny to think we're forced to completely invent something on their behalf. This idea has legs. Dr Crusher has dumped him by FC and naturally Picard goes postal - hell wouldn't we all?

 

[Naraht]

Posted by mon capitaine:
I really like the idea of the relationship happening after AGT and before Generations. It's so damn funny to think we're forced to completely invent something on their behalf. This idea has legs. Dr Crusher has dumped him by FC and naturally Picard goes postal - hell wouldn't we all?

Enough people have agreed with this one that I think it qualifies as fanon now! Anyone want to volunteer to write a story?

Other thoughts... I showed Chain of Command the other day to a friend of mine who's only seen about a dozen episodes of TNG. She's already been taught the basics of the whole P/C thing, so I had high hopes for her. But then, during the scene where Picard goes back to Madred in order to save Beverly from being tortured, she turns to me and says "I don't think she deserves him".

So, is this wisdom from out of the mouths of newbies? Discussing it with her afterwards, I had to admit that she had a point about this episode. Bev abandons Picard on Celtris in order to save herself and Worf, almost without a second thought. And then he goes and does one of the most heroic things in Star Trek, purely for her sake...

Do we really think Beverly would have gone that quickly? Can I salvage things by telling my friend that the writers just got her character wrong? Or what?

 

[Gold Grizzly]

I think that she correctly assessed that going back would only mean capture for herself and Worf. Perhaps having someone impulsive like Worf with her helped her to make a more reasoned judgement. Picard's sacrifice, in contrast, was made because he believed that some good would come out of it.

I don't think that she should be critisised for her decision.

 

[mon capitaine]

In reasoning that 'she doesn't deserve him', your friend has made a giant leap forward in appreciating TNG. Picard has always been depicted as noble and well, just more damn interesting than Beverly. *ducks*

In this instance though, it's probably a bit unfair. I think he would have left her had the positions been reversed. It was a tactical withdrawl and though she did feel bad about it afterwards, it was the right thing to do at the time.

 

[Naraht]

Posted by mon capitaine:
In reasoning that 'she doesn't deserve him', your friend has made a giant leap forward in appreciating TNG. Picard has always been depicted as noble and well, just more damn interesting than Beverly. *ducks*

Noble, yes, but there's more to a good relationship than being a great diplomat and reader of Shakespeare. While Picard has many wonderful qualities, I doubt many of them would help him romantically. It's in this sense that he doesn't deserve Beverly, not in a moral sense...

In this instance though, it's probably a bit unfair. I think he would have left her had the positions been reversed.

Would he? Just like he left Jack?

Anyway, I'm sure she made the right decision, but I'm just not sure whether I really would have *expected* her to make the right decision. Or am I digging myself into a deeper hole here?

 

[Gold Grizzly]

I'd expect that being a Doctor would give her the experience to make those decisions clinically.