I like the episode but I agree with you on the plot holes
Overrated or Underrated
- Thread starter Prax
- Start date
Ship in a Bottle is underrated. I'd have it easily as one of TNG's best. Great performances and a fascinating discussion, even if the tech responsible for the story is pretty silly.
As for overrated, I remembered Qpid as being good, so I included it in a very selective rewatch with my partner. We were spent much of it laughing at how awful the dialogue was.
Add in Rascals, which I'd have in the bottom few Trek episodes ever. Some of the worst acting and writing in the franchise, together with absolute nonsense science.
As for overrated, I remembered Qpid as being good, so I included it in a very selective rewatch with my partner. We were spent much of it laughing at how awful the dialogue was.
Add in Rascals, which I'd have in the bottom few Trek episodes ever. Some of the worst acting and writing in the franchise, together with absolute nonsense science.
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I think Silicon Avatar is underrated. It's got some really nice Data moments.
"The Outcast" is underrated until the last five minutes. The last five minutes deserve all the panning it gets as a cop-out ending.
I think "Family" is overrated. I just didn't care about Picard's issues with his brother.
My work here is done.
My work here is done.
The Royale is a favorite of mine. Strange episode, sure but it's a lot of fun.
I find The Survivors to be a very underrated episode.
What would you have expected to happen at the end of the episode? It's a tragic ending for all the characters involved, Riker included.
Honestly? I would've only changed one thing but it would've made all the difference to me. I think Soren should've fought harder at the hearing. Especially when it was ruled that she had to be "corrected" to become "normal" again. I would've had her scream at the top of her lungs at the end, impassioned, and then when they try to take her away, it would become physical and she'd struggle as she's hauled away. Then she's "cured" (it repels me to type that sentence), off-camera, as happened in the episode and you still get the same result at the end of the episode. The only difference is, Soren would've put up more of a fight. She would've fought it up right up to the end.
Her being "cured" should feel as horrible as what happened to Jack Nicholson's RP McMurphy in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest after Nurse Ratched was done with him. Who RP was was gone. Who Soren was would've been gone. Even though Soren, unlike RP, would still have her mental facilities intact, it would feel just as bad. She wouldn't be who she was anymore and she'd be an unquestioning sheep following the rules of society instead of fighting against them. I think the ending shouldn't be tragic so much as horrific.
The thought of me being changed into something I'm not and would've fought my entire life against would be a true horror. It would be someone's worst nightmare. It's a direct assault on someone's personhood. On Soren's womanhood. So that's why I think there should've been more resistance on Soren's end at the end of the hearing.
I think the rest of the episode leading up to it was pretty good, especially considering that it came out in 1992. So it really is just that one thing I would've changed.
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One of my absolute favorites. Probably the episode that cemented O'Brien's rise from glorified extra to main franchise cast member...and also set the stage for the existence of DS9.
I like most Data episodes but this one has always bothered me in the setting up of the moral dilemma and its execution. In the end Dr. Marr appears mentally unstable in her grief driven revenge. The writing has Picard and Data go too far in their condemnation of Dr. Marr. She took unauthorized action and will have to face official censure for that but she seems clearly disturbed in the moment. Expert or not she shouldn't even have been on the mission because of her deep personal connection to it.
Anyway the Entity should have been hunted down and terminated with extreme prejudice. For me by conspiring with Lore it had ALREADY demonstrated that it was intelligent and evil! The lives of millions and safety of entire planets outweighs the life of the miserable Crystalline Entity.
Of course there is room to disagree but since it first aired this one hasn't gone down right with me.
Overrated: Don't know
Underrated: True Q
Lore's interaction with it was like luring a dog to get food. When it destroys colonies, it's simply eating. When Marr killed the thing she interrupted the communication breakthrough that could've brought peace (like the giant planet eater in TAS that is told there are living beings on those planets and it backs off!). I'm always mad at her. She is more evil than the entity, cause she killed it while making first contact out of plain and simple revenge. The entity at least had a reason since it wanted to survive and needed food, and was probably not aware of the sentient life in its lunch.
Would be saying that if it killed your son?
I agree with you that Picard was perhaps too judgemental, and could have allowed more for her mental instability, and that she never should have been on the mission in the first place. As for Data, I do not feel condemnation from him. It's just that the dr. asks him if he could tell wat her son would have thought of this, and he, being data, gives a straightforward answer where perhaps someone with more 'tact' would have remained vaguer. But I sense no judgement from him personally, simply voicing what he thinks her son would have thought.
As for what should have been done with the Crystalline Entity, I'm not sure. I'd be tempted to see if communication and an agreement with it would be possible, but I have to admit that its conspiring with Lore creates a strong possibility of it already being very aware of what it's doing.
In my opinion, the story would have been immensely more compelling if they had not revealed her to be emotionally unstable.
Then you could have two rational people with two opposing views, with no clear answer as to who is right. Once she sees that Picard is unwilling to destroy the creature, she could still take the matter into her own hands. Then you could have different people taking different sides and endlessly debate the episode. Silicon Avatar would be the "Tuvix thread" for the TNG forum. There just aren't a lot of TNG episodes that are that controversial.
It would've been nice to see more outsiders come on the Enterprise that don't necessarily feel compelled to obey the Captain's authority, and not because they're crazy.
Then you could have two rational people with two opposing views, with no clear answer as to who is right. Once she sees that Picard is unwilling to destroy the creature, she could still take the matter into her own hands. Then you could have different people taking different sides and endlessly debate the episode. Silicon Avatar would be the "Tuvix thread" for the TNG forum. There just aren't a lot of TNG episodes that are that controversial.
It would've been nice to see more outsiders come on the Enterprise that don't necessarily feel compelled to obey the Captain's authority, and not because they're crazy.
I complained about the things that have always bothered me about this episode. Thanks for giving your perspectives. Let me say that if the way things are handled in this episode bother me it is possible that the problem is mine and not the episode and its writers. I have seen it a half dozen times since it originally aired but I will watch it again tonight and try to look at it differently.
Obviously this episode works through territory covered in Man Trap, Devil In The Dark and Home Soil (as well as being partially connected to Datalore). I think the writing was trying to tease out some new aspects or look more closely at elements of those stories and even raise the stakes. Did it succeed or fail? In any case it seems to be trying so I should respect that.
I just watched Devil In The Dark again. If it was a mistake to have Dr. Marr on the CE mission hunt than Kirk made a mistake letting the miners in on the Horta hunt. Revenge was on their minds like Dr. Marr and they assaulted three (redshirts) Enterprise crew in an attempt execute that revenge and defy Kirk's orders.
Oh well if nothing else I find TOS, TNG, DS9 AND VOY can still be interesting even decades later.
Update: I rewatched Datalore and Silicon Avatar tonight. I still don't like this it's a whale, we're cuttlefish, let's talk to it business. In Datalore we hear Lore specifically mention that he earned the "gratitude" of the Crystalline Entity for delivering the Omicron Theta colony. He tells it that it can now recognize him as Data. Doesn't that take considerable intelligence on the part of the CE? Maybe we viewers know that and not Picard but Picard watched Lore speak English to it and the CE modified its behavior consistent with a plan to trick the Enterprise into lowering its defenses. This thing needed to go as surely as the Dikoronium Cloud Creature in Obsession (another warp cable menace to entire planets and weak shielded spacecraft).
Obviously this episode works through territory covered in Man Trap, Devil In The Dark and Home Soil (as well as being partially connected to Datalore). I think the writing was trying to tease out some new aspects or look more closely at elements of those stories and even raise the stakes. Did it succeed or fail? In any case it seems to be trying so I should respect that.
I just watched Devil In The Dark again. If it was a mistake to have Dr. Marr on the CE mission hunt than Kirk made a mistake letting the miners in on the Horta hunt. Revenge was on their minds like Dr. Marr and they assaulted three (redshirts) Enterprise crew in an attempt execute that revenge and defy Kirk's orders.
Oh well if nothing else I find TOS, TNG, DS9 AND VOY can still be interesting even decades later.
Update: I rewatched Datalore and Silicon Avatar tonight. I still don't like this it's a whale, we're cuttlefish, let's talk to it business. In Datalore we hear Lore specifically mention that he earned the "gratitude" of the Crystalline Entity for delivering the Omicron Theta colony. He tells it that it can now recognize him as Data. Doesn't that take considerable intelligence on the part of the CE? Maybe we viewers know that and not Picard but Picard watched Lore speak English to it and the CE modified its behavior consistent with a plan to trick the Enterprise into lowering its defenses. This thing needed to go as surely as the Dikoronium Cloud Creature in Obsession (another warp cable menace to entire planets and weak shielded spacecraft).
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