Over-representation of Americans

[Prax]

Again, taking out the aliens is generous to your argument. If you want to look at it that way, there are over 100 worlds in the Federation (1,000 if you believe Kirk but he seemed to be exaggerating). So having ANY Americans on Star Trek would be overreprentation.

You just said it, right there. And Spot agrees!

You guys are saying "No Americans."

Even one or two in universe "Americans" (your own misnomer)per series in Star Trek is too many for you to be pleased.

At least you're being honest. Perhaps I don't belong in your thread.

 

[flandry84]

Not to sound like a knob but I thought that the whole point of Trek was that it didn't matter if you were from Iowa,India or Vulcan...
Or was I wrong?

 

[Spot261]

It is a cop out. You yourself just said "in-universe explanation." You take away the aliens, and the "non Americans" and you are left with one or two "Americans" per show, per main cast. And you are effectively advocating their removal, or saying they don't deserve to be there.

Really? Who should we replace those 1 or 2 Americans with? And by what justification?

Nope, I am not saying anything of the sort. I haven't even mentioned anything which hints at removing anyone from anywhere. The OP asked "are Americans over represented in trek?". The answer is objectively yes.

If a group represents 4% of the human race but is shown as being 40% that is an over representation. If you are offended by that I can't help you, the numbers don't care either way, it's still true. We've gone over the real world explanations, they were a given from the word go.

The sensible question in universe then becomes how do we explain this. We could postulate the Eugenics wars may have left America largely untouched compared to other parts of the world, either through some tactical advantage or some diplomatic agreement perhaps.

Not to sound like a knob but I thought that the whole point of Trek was that it didn't matter if you were from Iowa,India or Vulcan...
Or was I wrong?

You're completely right, but if it doesn't matter where you're from, why is every second person from America? Purely on the balance of probability there should be far more Chinese people than Americans.

 

[urbandefault]

I think we should start a Change.org petition to limit Americans in Starfleet. That'll fix it.

 

[Prax]

Nope, I am not saying anything of the sort. I haven't even mentioned anything which hints at removing anyone from anywhere. The OP asked "are Americans over represented in trek?". The answer is objectively yes.

If a group represents 4% of the human race but is shown as being 40% that is an over representation. If you are offended by that I can't help you, the numbers don't care either way, it's still true. We've gone over the real world explanations, they were a given from the word go.

The sensible question in universe then becomes how do we explain this. We could postulate the Eugenics wars may have left America largely untouched compared to other parts of the world, either through some tactical advantage or some diplomatic agreement perhaps.



You're completely right, but if it doesn't matter where you're from, why is every second person from America? Purely on the balance of probability there should be far more Chinese people than Americans.

Yes, Matt said it, and you agreed.

It doesn't matter what the population of the world today, or the percentage of Americans is. The only way to bring in this representative diversity(by non existing in universe nationalities) is to eliminate Americans from Star Trek.

Deep space 9 has 1 "American" captain and his son. Is that 40%?

TNG has Riker
Is that 40%?

Voyager has Janeway
Is that 40%?

Well, I guess in one of these cases it could be. You just have to rid your argument of all those pointless aliens. They don't count, right?

Heck, Starfleet itself...and the Federation Council exist in this place you are referring to as America. We'd better fix that immediately.

Instead of looking at in-universe circumstances and applying ex post facto criticisms of a lacking in nationalistic diversity in a universe which has no national boundaries on earth, why not praise these shows for the effort they did make and succeeded in?

If my own child made a painting when she was 5, and tried to use as many colors as possible, would I pick up that painting 20 years later, point at it and say "Not good enough. You still used way too much blue. Blue is just one of many colors. You have failed in this regard."?

Are Americans in the real world over represented in the film industry? Are American movies over represented each year out all the movies made around the world? Are American films over represented at the Box office?

Why is one "Definitely American" character on a Star Trek show too many?

 

[Spot261]

Yes, Matt said it, and you agreed.

It doesn't matter what the population of the world today, or the percentage of Americans is. The only way to bring in this representative diversity(by non existing in universe nationalities) is to eliminate Americans from Star Trek.

Deep space 9 has 1 "American" captain and his son. Is that 40%?

TNG has Riker
Is that 40%?

Voyager has Janeway
Is that 40%?

Well, I guess in one of these cases it could be. You just have to rid your argument of all those pointless aliens. They don't count, right?

Heck, Starfleet itself...and the Federation Council exist in this place you are referring to as America. We'd better fix that immediately.

Instead of looking at in-universe circumstances and applying ex post facto criticisms of a lacking in nationalistic diversity in a universe which has no national boundaries on earth, why not praise these shows for the effort they did make and succeeded in?

If my own child made a painting when she was 5, and tried to use as many colors as possible, would I pick up that painting 20 years later, point at it and say "Not good enough. You still used way too much blue. Blue is just one of many colors. You have failed in this regard."?

Are Americans in the real world over represented in the film industry? Are American movies over represented each year out all the movies made around the world? Are American films over represented at the Box office?

Why is one "Definitely American" character on a Star Trek show too many?

Because despite your ridiculous histrionics all anyone actually suggested is it would be interesting to think of an in universe explanation?

Or did you miss the whole point of the thread?

 

[Prax]

This particular conversation began when I posted a list of all the confirmed (main) characters who are from the region formerly know as the United States of America. I was quite surprised that it was so few-only one or two per series(or 3 on TOS) and have been repeatedly told that Americans are over represented by this.

If this is not a type of fault finding conversation, and is of no consequence, then I would simply disagree(and not be offended)

And I would argue that Starfleet, the Warp Engine, the Warp 5 program, and the Federation all have their roots in the region formerly known as the United States, and that many people who seek a life in Starfleet are from that region, just not necessarily most.

Also, the transporter was developed in that region. Maybe this territory is a popular place to live in the Star Trek world, and many more humans have since moved there. Maybe All of the Americans alive today that survive the terrible wars that Trek tells us happens- maybe they all flee to Mexico and Canada, and years later, the Continental US was repopulated by British colonists.

Since you say this is purely in-universe and inconsequential, you will no doubt have throw out your population percentage figures as they are based on the 21st century when the united States still existed as sovereign power with 50 states.

And you'll have to add back in aliens that are part of Starfleet.

Then we'd have to look at all the supporting and guest actors that show up in Starfleet uniforms and try to pin down where they come from.

Once we've done all that, we could endlessly speculate about the make-up of the hundreds of different Starships.

 

[Mattadd]

According to our current understanding of human population distribution Americans are over-represented in Star Trek. This is not a point that can be disputed. Americans do not make up 40% of the human population nor do they make up 15-20% of the Federation population. The question is to ask what in-universe explanations there might be for this.

Perhaps it is that more Americans are interested in persuing a career in Starfleet because that's where the Academy is, that's a reasonable point. Perhaps the population distribution has changed dramatically by the 22nd century. Those are reasonable arguments that start to answer the question. But you can't just say they flat-out aren't over-represented because the numbers clearly indicate that they are.

 

[Jeyl]

I've got an in-universe explanation with regards to why America is represented a lot more in Star Trek. In the Original Series episode "The Omega Glory", it's established that America, it's principles and it's flag are a biological state of mind that species across the universe share. America is just too awesome to be limited to just Humans!

 

[Tenacity]

Anyway, in the united Earth of Trek's time, there shouldn't even be nations anymore.

Why wouldn't there be nations? Earth nations joined United Earth yes, but it's probably just a international organization like the UN. It's not like the sovereign nations would dissolve after joining.

You asked how Canadians pronounce the word here

I misunderstood your response, the fault is mine.

Not to sound like a knob but I thought that the whole point of Trek was that it didn't matter if you were from Iowa,India or Vulcan...
Or was I wrong?

I wouldn't say that "the whole point" is what you suggested, characters do make a point of bringing up where they're from. Of the commanding officers of the hero ships/station four of the five are Americans, so maybe it does make a difference.

Not "should it," but what is observed on the show.

. Americans do not make up 40% of the human population nor do they make up 15-20% of the Federation population.

There's no guarantee that all species join Starfleet in equal proportions, some species might not have any people join.

America is just too awesome to be limited to just Humans!

This much is true.

 

[SPCTRE]

You guys are saying "No Americans."

 

[Spot261]

According to our current understanding of human population distribution Americans are over-represented in Star Trek. This is not a point that can be disputed. Americans do not make up 40% of the human population nor do they make up 15-20% of the Federation population. The question is to ask what in-universe explanations there might be for this.

Perhaps it is that more Americans are interested in persuing a career in Starfleet because that's where the Academy is, that's a reasonable point. Perhaps the population distribution has changed dramatically by the 22nd century. Those are reasonable arguments that start to answer the question. But you can't just say they flat-out aren't over-represented because the numbers clearly indicate that they are.

I can't imagine the San Francisco academy being the only campus, the numbers just don't seem to work, it's the only one we see. The TOS starfleet, the "only ship in the sector" starfleet, yes, the DS9 "fleets of thousands of ships" starfleet with hundreds if starbases and SF also providing ground troops, less so.

It's also hard to see that WWIII could have altered the demographics to the point it carries over centuries later. We see a world with 9 billion people spread over all the continents, with a seemingly equally quasi utopian lifestyle. There's no real reason to suspect the vagaries of war had somehow left the US undamaged resulting in a skewed population.....

 

[MacLeod]

Again, taking out the aliens is generous to your argument. If you want to look at it that way, there are over 100 worlds in the Federation (1,000 if you believe Kirk but he seemed to be exaggerating). So having ANY Americans on Star Trek would be overreprentation.

Actually both statements can be true.

I believe Kirk said something along the lines of "We are on over a thousands worlds...."

And by the time of TNG there are ~150 members.

So we could have hundreds or thousands of worlds where the UFP has a colony but those colonies are not full members themselves rather they are represented by their homeworld.

 

[SPCTRE]

I can't imagine the San Francisco academy being the only campus, the numbers just don't seem to work, it's the only one we see.

oy vey that line of questioning leads down the dark, dark paths of "Size of Starfleet" arguments

 

[Spot261]

oy vey that line of questioning leads down the dark, dark paths of "Size of Starfleet" arguments

Not to mention the inevitable follow on when they are compared to modern militaries.....

 

[Prax]

How do we know the population of Earth is 9 billion? I always imagined it around 1 Billion or maybe even less by 24th century.

 

[Kor]

How do we know the population of Earth is 9 billion? I always imagined it around 1 Billion or maybe even less by 24th century.

The figure of nine billion was only cited in Star Trek: First Contact when Data scanned the Borg-altered Earth. I don't think we know the exact population in the normal timeline.

Kor

 

[Sgt_G]

I'm an American, and I'm proud to say that. Mom's side of the family is a mix of a lot of Scottish, some Irish and Welsh, a bit of French, and a heavy dose of Native American (Iroquois and Susquehannock). Dad's side of the family was mainly from German; my five-great grandfather came over in 1756, and his son's wife was born in Germany. Dad's mom was second-generation immigrant from Denmark.

I've been to Europe three times (England, Portugal, and Germany), just for a couple few days each. All three times, people thought I was from Germany. I did seem to blend into the crowd while in Germany. I was in Korea and had some stranger come up and start talking German to me (he wanted directions to "our" embassy).

I don't consider myself to be German-American, or any other hyphenated kind of American Just American. I don't claim to represent Germans -- I don't wear lederhosen. Heck, I don't even drink beer. But apparently my ethnic / genetic background is obvious to some people.

 

[Tenacity]

I believe Kirk said something along the lines of "We are on over a thousands worlds...."

kirk was talking to Cockrane, another Earth Human (and another American). Kirk's "We're on over a thousand worlds and spreading out." might have been solely referring to Humans and the number of worlds with a Human presence.

Not the number of Federation members, or Federation worlds.

Although I do like the idea that there were more Federation members in the 23rd century, verses the 24th century.

 

[Kor]

Although I do like the idea that there were more Federation members in the 23rd century, verses the 24th century.

So many became disgusted at the heartless 24th-century reinterpretation of the Prime Directive that they left the Federation.

Kor