I didn't say it did. But you are fundamentally different from Cubans that have stayed in Cuba by virtue of the fact that you, you know, no longer live in Cuba. In any case that's a whole separate argument. I never brought up ethnicity in my OP, I was talking about nationality, the fact that there are not that many people that physically live in the US, yet a lot of characters that grew up in the US in Star Trek, regardless of what their ethnic background is.
Over-representation of Americans
- Thread starter Mattadd
- Start date
Maybe. But it doesn't misunderstand non-American experience. You try going to Mexico and telling the locals that you're 'Mexican' because your parents were born in Mexico. I've seen it, they don't agree, those people are usually mocked.
^ And there are plenty of people who moved from Mexico to the US as infants or young children and become very acculturated and accustomed to life in the US but never become American nationals. Culturally they are just like your example; they may go to school or work in multi-cultural settings (depending on the region/neighborhood), but there's a good chance that their domestic, social, church, etc. lives occur a great deal among the Mexican immigrant community. How would they be described? The only difference is some technicality on paper.
Anyway, in the united Earth of Trek's time, there shouldn't even be nations anymore.
Kor
Anyway, in the united Earth of Trek's time, there shouldn't even be nations anymore.
Kor
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Acknowledging and celebrating your historic cultural roots is a long way from presenting yourself as a representative of a group in it's current incarnation.
I can't speak for natives Cubans but I can say I would be outright offended if a white American chose to claim they represented me based on their great grandparents nationality. Many in fact will make that claim but the simple blunt truth is they are wrong to do so and wrong to presume others would accept it.
This statement reeks of ethnocentrism, the belief that you as a nation are somehow fundamentally different to any other. To make the observation that you are a population of individuals with varied backgrounds and different outlooks ignores the fact that so are most countries. To be a cultural melting pot is not unique to the "American experience", on the contrary an awful lot of the evidence suggests that America if anything is actually pretty insular in it's collective outlook compared to much of the civilised world.
No one has the right to claim they somehow represent another group without that group's assent, that decision lies with those being represented, not those presuming to represent them.
There aren't that many Americans in-universe. Of the original crew, only Kirk, McCoy and maybe Sulu? Chapel?
On TNG, Riker is from Alaska. Geordi may or may not be from America. He was probably raised on starbases. Picard, Crusher, little Crusher, Troi, Data, O'Brien, Ro, etc are not Americans. Maybe Barclay?
On DS9, only Sisko is an American.
On Voyager, Janeway is American(because she gets her name and origin from Kate Mulgrew) Paris may or may not be American. He was probably raised on various Starbases and attended the Academy in France. Kim may or may not be American. The rest are definitely not American.
Enterprise: Archer was from New York, and Tucker from Florida. The rest were not American.
Certainly American: 7(Kirk, McCoy, Riker, Sisko, Jake Sisko, Janeway, Archer, Trip)
Possibly American: 6(Chapel, Sulu, Laforge, Pulaski, Paris, Kim)7 if you include Barclay.
Possibly not: 6(or 7)
Certainly not American: 32(Spock, Uhura, Scott, Chekov, Picard, Dr. Crusher, Acting Ensign Crusher, Worf, Troi, Data, O'Brien, Guinan, Ro, Kira, Jadzia, Bashir, Odo, Quark, Nog, Rom, Ezri, Chakotay, Torres, EMH, Neelix, Kes, Seven of Nine, T'Pol, Reed, Hoshi, Mayweather, and Phlox.
Are Americans over represented on Star Trek? No, not really.
On TNG, Riker is from Alaska. Geordi may or may not be from America. He was probably raised on starbases. Picard, Crusher, little Crusher, Troi, Data, O'Brien, Ro, etc are not Americans. Maybe Barclay?
On DS9, only Sisko is an American.
On Voyager, Janeway is American(because she gets her name and origin from Kate Mulgrew) Paris may or may not be American. He was probably raised on various Starbases and attended the Academy in France. Kim may or may not be American. The rest are definitely not American.
Enterprise: Archer was from New York, and Tucker from Florida. The rest were not American.
Certainly American: 7(Kirk, McCoy, Riker, Sisko, Jake Sisko, Janeway, Archer, Trip)
Possibly American: 6(Chapel, Sulu, Laforge, Pulaski, Paris, Kim)7 if you include Barclay.
Possibly not: 6(or 7)
Certainly not American: 32(Spock, Uhura, Scott, Chekov, Picard, Dr. Crusher, Acting Ensign Crusher, Worf, Troi, Data, O'Brien, Guinan, Ro, Kira, Jadzia, Bashir, Odo, Quark, Nog, Rom, Ezri, Chakotay, Torres, EMH, Neelix, Kes, Seven of Nine, T'Pol, Reed, Hoshi, Mayweather, and Phlox.
Are Americans over represented on Star Trek? No, not really.
There are some issues with your list. Sulu goes into the certainly American list since we know he was born in San Francisco.
Bashir, Wesley and Chakotay go into the possibly American list, since their homes were never specified.
That means you have 8 certainly American humans compared to.. I'm counting 10 confirmed human non-Americans? Max? That is a massive over-representation. If it was by today's numbers if you had 20 crew, American representation would amount to 1 person out of those 20.
Bashir, Wesley and Chakotay go into the possibly American list, since their homes were never specified.
That means you have 8 certainly American humans compared to.. I'm counting 10 confirmed human non-Americans? Max? That is a massive over-representation. If it was by today's numbers if you had 20 crew, American representation would amount to 1 person out of those 20.
Bashir can't go in the maybe category as he is supposed to be Pakistani. Wesley is whatever his mother is. His mother was born on the moon and her family all live in Scotland. Chakotay was born on a colony in the DMZ. When his father took him to Earth to learn about his culture, he took him to Central America.
These 3 are safely in the definitely not category.
+1 definitely American for Sulu. I didn't know that.
Aliens are fair game as they make up the main cast. B'elanna and Troi are half human and definitely not American. Worf was raised on earth but definitely not in America.
And I'm counting more here. Uhura, Scott, Chekov, Picard, Crusher, Crusher, O'Brien, Bashir, Chakotay, Seven of Nine, Hoshi, Reed, Mayweather...
Where does O'Brien's wife fit in? I'm not sure, but if it was ever mentioned, someone here knows.
Data was created by(and in the likeness of) a non American human. B'elanna was not just half human, but like Worf, was raised by non American humans.
And even the "Americans*" are quite diverse. Janeway and Kirk are from Indiana and Iowa, bit Riker is from Alaska! Archer from upstate New York, and Trip from central Florida. And Sisko is from New Orleans. These places are so different from each other. America is the 3rd largest Country in the world with the 3rd largest population. It's divided into 50 separate, sovereign states. If we reduced the American representations in Star Trek, we'd be left with like ZERO Americans. TOS could spare 1 or 2 and still have 1. TNG could not spare 1. DS9 could not spare 1. Ent could spare 1 and still have 1.
*I added quotes because the United States is no longer a sovereign nation, and our contemporary definitions of nations are meaningless in the Star Trek world.
These 3 are safely in the definitely not category.
+1 definitely American for Sulu. I didn't know that.
Aliens are fair game as they make up the main cast. B'elanna and Troi are half human and definitely not American. Worf was raised on earth but definitely not in America.
And I'm counting more here. Uhura, Scott, Chekov, Picard, Crusher, Crusher, O'Brien, Bashir, Chakotay, Seven of Nine, Hoshi, Reed, Mayweather...
Where does O'Brien's wife fit in? I'm not sure, but if it was ever mentioned, someone here knows.
Data was created by(and in the likeness of) a non American human. B'elanna was not just half human, but like Worf, was raised by non American humans.
And even the "Americans*" are quite diverse. Janeway and Kirk are from Indiana and Iowa, bit Riker is from Alaska! Archer from upstate New York, and Trip from central Florida. And Sisko is from New Orleans. These places are so different from each other. America is the 3rd largest Country in the world with the 3rd largest population. It's divided into 50 separate, sovereign states. If we reduced the American representations in Star Trek, we'd be left with like ZERO Americans. TOS could spare 1 or 2 and still have 1. TNG could not spare 1. DS9 could not spare 1. Ent could spare 1 and still have 1.
*I added quotes because the United States is no longer a sovereign nation, and our contemporary definitions of nations are meaningless in the Star Trek world.
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There's a line in Memory Alpha about how the writers imagined Bashir was from Pakistan or Inia or Sudan but it was never established in Canon. He could just as easily be from New York.
Just because Wesley's mom wasn't American does mean he isn't. I believe it was pointed out by someone else that it's established he was born while Bev was in med school. Never said where that med school was.
I'll give you Chakotay I didn't know that.
I was actually being generous when I limited the OP to humans, because humans are already overrepresented in Starfleet. If you want to include all the aliens there should probably be like 1 human and 0 Americans among the main cast considering the thousands of Federation worlds. So Americans are even more vastly overrepresented on that level.
Non sequitur.
Apart from the problems already identified with this list the inclusion of Spock, Worf, Troi, Data, Guinan, Ro, Kira, Jadzia, Odo, Quark, Rom, Ezri, Torres, EMH, Neelix, Kes, Seven of Nine, T'Pol and Phlox invalidate your conclusion given they aren't human.
That takes your 32 to 13 confirmed non American humans, with 7 confirmed Americans. If we split the difference on the "maybes" rather than quibble each case that makes 13 Americans to 19 non Americans amongst the humans, so 68% of main cast humans are American.
According to the United States Census Bureau the current US population is in the ballpark of 323 million, approximately 4.6% of the population if we assume a round 7 billion, meaning Trek not only over represents Americans, but does so quite literally by an order of magnitude, with a rounded 15 times the expected number of Americans based on the predictions of evenly biased representation.
That leaves aside the argument mentioned above that humans in general are already over represented.
How do you come up with 68%? There are less American humans than non American humans. And you split the maybes, you get 11 Americans, And 16 non Americans. That's a total of 27 humans. 40% are American. You must have forgotten to add the total before dividing.
And taking out the aliens is a pathetic copout. Especially the human aliens
Let's get rid of some of these Americans, shall we? DS9- Goodbye Sisko. Take your western privilege and kiss off. How many Americans now? None.
TNG- "Commander, Sir, I...I heard you were from Canada...."
"I'm from Alaska, and because of that, I've been asked to leave. Us Americans are a dying breed on this ship. Once I'm gone, there won't be any left."
Ent. I guess we'll have to get rid of Archer or Trip, or both. It's an American show you say? Too bad. They're the best characters on the show you say? Oh well. They're American.
The United States no longer exists you say? Too bad. 21st century British and Canadian sensibilities shall rule the day.
Oh, get Janeway out of here too! She's over representing Americans on Voyager.
And taking out the aliens is a pathetic copout. Especially the human aliens
Let's get rid of some of these Americans, shall we? DS9- Goodbye Sisko. Take your western privilege and kiss off. How many Americans now? None.
TNG- "Commander, Sir, I...I heard you were from Canada...."
"I'm from Alaska, and because of that, I've been asked to leave. Us Americans are a dying breed on this ship. Once I'm gone, there won't be any left."
Ent. I guess we'll have to get rid of Archer or Trip, or both. It's an American show you say? Too bad. They're the best characters on the show you say? Oh well. They're American.
The United States no longer exists you say? Too bad. 21st century British and Canadian sensibilities shall rule the day.
Oh, get Janeway out of here too! She's over representing Americans on Voyager.
I didn't say that, at all, but I'll leave it be since this growing in to more miscommunication.
Starfleet is a human organization based on Earth. They allow anyone who wants to join and can get a sponsor, join. Even non Federation members like Bajorans, or Nog. But Nog still had to fly to Earth to become an officer. Enlisted indoc and training is also in San Fran.
You asked how Canadians pronounce the word here:
I answered how we pronounce it.
Actually, we only know he went to France for a physical training program.
"Trek" is still sci-fi, not a blueprint for reality (not even DS9), as our nations have become over the span of millennia. It shows superficial ideas but not the substance on "how to get there", assuming such a hypothesis worked.
"Trek" has always been a metaphor, for humans or countries, never a how-to guide. No better example exists than DS9, arguably, since the 24th century is pretty much the same thing but only on a larger scale.
Even then, most sci-fi sticks to simple terms and single societies encompassing a whole planet. In reality, shows like "The Keys of Marinus" with numerous cultures and continents would be closer to real life conditions. But for an hour show, complexity can only go so far. Along with every other consideration, which is why the trope sticks to one if not two factions representing the whole of the planet being visited - unrealistic as it is.
Also, what's true in one country isn't necessarily a truism everywhere else. If Country X made it sown show, it's probably going to cater to its culture first and if other countries' citizens stumble on the show and like it, that's great -- but Country X is invariably going to be first. Now that seems closer to a truism. Especially as shows like Doctor Who, in the 1980s or now, still say they want the show to "be British" - whatever that means since many of those chaps don't really go into detail as if everyone else knows precisely what they mean.
Again, taking out the aliens is generous to your argument. If you want to look at it that way, there are over 100 worlds in the Federation (1,000 if you believe Kirk but he seemed to be exaggerating). So having ANY Americans on Star Trek would be overreprentation.
It's an American show yes, but that is yet another strawman. The OP was specifically asking about an in universe perspective. We've already established the real world practicalities of casting are what led to this situation, the question is whether the starfleet we see on over represents Americans given it supposedly draws equally on the human race as a whole. Categorically it does so by a massive margin and there really is no case otherwise.
Sorry, miscount on the 68%, but the point is still good at 40% given the actual percentage should be between 4 and 5% of humanity. Ten times rather than fifteen
so that doesn't really help you much. By rights we should see maybe two Americans in the entire franchise, three would be a definite statistical outlier. Hardly a "dying breed", more a case of totally dominating.Removing the aliens is absolutely not a cop out, the question is whether humanity is represented proportionately onscreen, including aliens doesn't help your case. In fact your argument holds even less water once we include them because it cuts both ways. If we start counting the aliens we then have to take into account how humanity itself is over represented.
Including all the member species of the federation into account we should be lucky to see a single human at all, much less an American.
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Good example, I am more British than any Anglo American who only came to the UK on holiday, and my skin is brown, my hair is in locs and Sunday roast is not my culinary tradition lol
They were the only ones willing to let the Federation Broadcasting Service film them working lol
It would not be the first time an organisation did not live up to its ideals, even if its a fictional one
There is a better case for species only ships for physiological reasons, (why should vulcans or andorians work in a place that is not conducive to their body temperature, imagine a human on a Vulcan dominated ship having to hold back showing emotions, they would go insane) than for human ships divided by ethnicities, that are still human.
Sure there is, but I think the larger question goes back to representation, which, I doubt, will be satisfactorily answered here.
It is a cop out. You yourself just said "in-universe explanation." You take away the aliens, and the "non Americans" and you are left with one or two "Americans" per show, per main cast. And you are effectively advocating their removal, or saying they don't deserve to be there.It's an American show yes, but that is yet another strawman. The OP was specifically asking about an in universe perspective. We've already established the real world practicalities of casting are what led to this situation, the question is whether the starfleet we see on over represents Americans given it supposedly draws equally on the human race as a whole. Categorically it does so by a massive margin and there really is no case otherwise.
Sorry, miscount on the 68%, but the point is still good at 40% given the actual percentage should be between 4 and 5% of humanity. Ten times rather than fifteen
Removing the aliens is absolutely not a cop out, the question is whether humanity is represented proportionately onscreen, including aliens doesn't help your case. In fact your argument holds even less water once we include them because it cuts both ways. If we start counting the aliens we then have to take into account how humanity itself is over represented.
Including all the member species of the federation into account we should be lucky to see a single human at all, much less an American.
Really? Who should we replace those 1 or 2 Americans with? And by what justification?
