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Other Fed Worlds

But a federal setup that's concerned with maintaining the rights of its citizens would create a setup that would allow its constituent polities to defend themselves if the federal government began to behave tyrannically -- say, if something like Leyton's coup were to happen.

That's one way to see it - but the ultimate conclusion there is that every citizen must be armed to rise against his or her neighbor in case the upper levels of societal hierarchy don't please him or her.

And that dissolves the coherence of the society. A certain degree of oppression is always built into the very concept of having a society, and a certain degree should be accepted because the downsides of not having a society are so significant. If everybody were to be armed with the intent to disrespect laws other than his or her personal ones, that would make the society unstable. If every city were armed with the intent to only respect city legislation when the push comes to a shove, only nations with relatively few cities could remain stablish. If every state were armed, again it would be a bad idea to pool too many of these together because the more there are, the likelier that any attempt at pan-state legislation would rub some of the states the wrong way.

The Federation has something like 150 members, but definitely more planets than that. To satisfy the need for "local" armed forces, there'd have to be thousands of separate militias. How to legislate across all that, and expect the militias to comply? Either the general legislation would have to go for the lowest common denominator, or some degree of draconianism would have to come to play.

Odds are, if Leyton succeeded in his coup, even a unified Starfleet would subdivide by political view - but it would neatly split in two halves plus perhaps a few undecideds. In contrast, a collection of militias would have great difficulty in creating a unified front against the change in status quo...

Dunno. Somehow the idea of deliberately preparing the elements of a society for destroying that society sounds less appealing than the idea of keeping the means of destruction away from as many hands as possible. I know, I know, "If only the crooks have guns" etc. But in practice, the big guns are already in the hands of the people we trust not to be crooks (here and in Trek), and the little guns will never make a difference.

Except that there's never been any indication that the Romulans were a friendly government at the time

The very idea that Starfleet would feel up to taking on the Klingon Empire, or vice versa, suggests that the balance of power has shifted. And the simplest way for the balance to shift would be if the Romulans agreed to ally with one side (or more probably, with both sides).

Going from being chummy with Klingons to being chummy with Feds would seem natural. There were indications of a former, TOS-era alliance with the Klingon Empire, but we know Kor fought Romulans in the decade preceding ST6, and early 24th century will see the two species constantly at each others' throats.

and, plus, where are the Romulan military aides, if that's the case, to accompany the Ambassador?

It would seem rational for the Ambassador to be the aide. He could legitimately hobnob with the UFP top brass, as long as nobody spied into the actual discussions. ANd in any case, the show-and-tell for the President's benefit was not part of military negotiations and planning - it was the end result of that process.

1) The Federation Embassies on Andor and Betazed are historical sites that are no more currently functioning diplomatic missions

That would be a bit odd in the case of Andor, considering this world/culture was supposedly one of the founders of the Federation (although we still only have the word of an untrustworthy time traveler on that!). There'd never exist a time window for having a UFP Embassy on Andorian soil. Would work for Betazed, though.

OTOH, Cusack was actively working as an attache there, suggesting the "relic" isn't completely forgotten after all.

2) The Federation Embassies on Andor and Betazed are actually there to represent the Federation to foreign states that happen to be near Andor and Betazed but who do not themselves have permanent diplomatic missions from the Federation on their own soil.

Again possible, but Andor seems to be deep enough in the Federation core regions astrographically, and in the political dealings overall, that it's an unlikely spot for a "frontier outpost" of that sort.

3) The Federation maintains "embassies" on its Member States, and the definition of "embassy" has expanded to include governmental institutions that seek to promote cooperation and integration within the larger Federation government across the void of space. This may be similar to the offices that many US states have opened in the US Capital and abroad that seek to promote the interests of those individual states -- and federal offices located within US states that seek to promote the US federal government.

That would be my pick of the three. All the 50 States are still populated by humans, most of whom share a language or two. The UFP would consist of such a bewildering variety of biologies and philosophies that any attempt at Fed-level unity would need all the bureaucratic and PR help it can get.

Since Starfleet is more or less a military orginization designed to protect the United Federation of Planets, I'm sure each member world keeps their own "police force" of ships to deal with matters to trivial for Starfleet to get involved in.

But why would anything be too trivial for Starfleet? Surely Starfleet could operate those "police force" ships just as easily as anybody else - if not in fact more easily, as it knows a thing or two about operating ships.

If the idea of the military doing the policing sounds unappealing, just think of it the other way around: the police doing the military work. Starfleet would be lavishly equipped for both ends of the job spectrum, and for everything in the middle, too.

In the end, "concentration of power" sounds awfully hollow in this argument, because in practice "power" only comes from two sources: the barrel of the phaser, and the legislation that tells how the barrel should be pointed. There would be no difference between police and military in the first respect, as both could wield the same sort of weaponry if they so chose. And neither a separate police organization or one that is merely a branch of Starfleet would be able to budge legislation.

Timo Saloniemi
 
That's one way to see it - but the ultimate conclusion there is that every citizen must be armed to rise against his or her neighbor in case the upper levels of societal hierarchy don't please him or her.

And that dissolves the coherence of the society.

Hmm. I live in a federation whose constitutent polities all possess their own local militias. I live in a federation where a significant percentage of the general population is also armed. Indeed, I live in a state where it is legal to be armed with a concealed weapon provided one has a permit.

I woke up this morning, took a shower, walked to classes, discovered they had been cancelled by the snowfall, and walked to the library, whence I am writing as we speak. At no point did I encounter any riots. At no point did I encounter looting. Law and order still exists. People weren't cussing at each other in the street. In fact, campus is kinda excited because a big shot is coming to campus for the campaign.

My society, which does the exact things you're arguing against, seems pretty coherent to me. And we've only ever had one civil war in our history -- which is more than most of Europe can say.

I think you're engaging in a great deal of exaggeration here.

But why would anything be too trivial for Starfleet? Surely Starfleet could operate those "police force" ships just as easily as anybody else - if not in fact more easily, as it knows a thing or two about operating ships.

If the idea of the military doing the policing sounds unappealing, just think of it the other way around: the police doing the military work. Starfleet would be lavishly equipped for both ends of the job spectrum, and for everything in the middle, too.

In the end, "concentration of power" sounds awfully hollow in this argument, because in practice "power" only comes from two sources: the barrel of the phaser, and the legislation that tells how the barrel should be pointed. There would be no difference between police and military in the first respect, as both could wield the same sort of weaponry if they so chose. And neither a separate police organization or one that is merely a branch of Starfleet would be able to budge legislation.
This may boil down to a cultural issue, but ultimately, you're probably not going to convince most Americans that it's a good idea to have the military performing law enforcement, what with our Posse Comitatus Act and all. American political culture is all about dividing power as much as possible between different groups and instilling into those groups a sense of rivalry, so that no one group is ever able to become so powerful as to overpower the rule of law. This is done on the political level, with divisions of authority between the federal and state and local governments; with the separation of governing authority between the President, Congress, and Supreme Court on the federal level; with the separation of governing authority between the Governor, state legislature, and state supreme court on the state level (and sometimes a state executive council and independently-elected executive officers); and it's done on the physical level, with separate uniformed services for the differing combat environments (Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, Coast Guard), and with separate federal and state military organizations (state National Guards, State Defense Forces).

By your same logic, you could just have all governing authority come from one guy or one small group of guys -- after all, so long as they're passing the right legislation, where's the harm, right? And shouldn't authority be concentrated into one person or persons who can easily be identified?

But I, and I suspect most Americans, genuinely believe that division of power between competing groups creates an environment more conductive to liberty and less conductive to corrosions to the rule of law. There's a reason we're not a unitary state.
 
This has been discussed before... pretty much, the Federation Starfleet assumes total command of all "military" operations in Federation space. The Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, and Bolians, are among the UFP races we've heard have merchant fleets.

In VOY, Tom Paris mentioned a Federation Naval Patrol, which i would imagine is analogous to the U.S. Coast Guard... Starfleet is the USN, and the Federation Naval Patrol is the Coast Guard.
 
...But the context suggests that the Naval Patrol deals with real water, not with the sort of figurative "ocean" where starships sail. So the difference could be more like the one between the USN and the Army Ranger desert warfare specialists.

Or the USN and the Rocky Mountains Boy Scouts, really, since nothing in the VOY context suggests that the Federation Naval Patrol was a "serious" military or police or SAR organization, and the fact that the youthful Paris wanted to join really points at something analogous to Boy Scouts.

But I, and I suspect most Americans, genuinely believe that division of power between competing groups creates an environment more conductive to liberty and less conductive to corrosions to the rule of law. There's a reason we're not a unitary state.

I just wonder if the same would hold true of a Federation-sized entity. I mean, unitary states work fine for something as puny as a European nation, but they seem to require intense tyranny in the case of something as large as Russia or China (although not in the case of India, which is a thoroughly democratic yet unitary nation where the military is monobloc yet plays a very limited role in politics). Should we see a trend here, with a "classic" Federal model the only non-draconian possibility for an entity larger than the largest Earth nations? Or should the trend actually reverse as the complexity increases by a couple of orders of magnitude?

It's very difficult to believe that terrestrial precedent would be useful in this case. I mean, naturally the Trek writers would work from that precedent - but whatever lacunae they leave in their constructs, we probably shouldn't fill with further assumptions based on Terran models.

Timo Saloniemi
 
The Fat Ferengi arms dealer in "Unification" says the Vulcans are pacifists. He ain't interested in vulcan ships cause he only deals in warships.
 
This has been discussed before... pretty much, the Federation Starfleet assumes total command of all "military" operations in Federation space. The Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, and Bolians, are among the UFP races we've heard have merchant fleets.

In VOY, Tom Paris mentioned a Federation Naval Patrol, which i would imagine is analogous to the U.S. Coast Guard... Starfleet is the USN, and the Federation Naval Patrol is the Coast Guard.

Part of this has been seen in the Pocket DS9 Relaunch too. Vaughn is overseeing the absorption of the Bajoran Militia in one of the last chapters of Unity and mentions that there were plans to build an Academy Annex on Bajor.
 
estrea said:
Since Vulcans are supposed to be pacifists,...
Might I learn where this is established on-screen, please?

I think it's that episode where they try and bash each other's heads in with the big sticks. Or maybe that one where Solok docks at DS9 to get repairs to his ship after months of combat.

At best we can say that Vulcans prefer non-violent solutions where they are appropriate. If someone was flying a ship full of explosives toward Vulcan, I'd suggest that the security services would (if no other option was viable) blow it out of the sky without a second thought - they would regret the lose of life but it would be illogical to allow the needs of the few or the one to outweigh the needs of the many.
 
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This has been discussed before... pretty much, the Federation Starfleet assumes total command of all "military" operations in Federation space. The Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, and Bolians, are among the UFP races we've heard have merchant fleets.

In VOY, Tom Paris mentioned a Federation Naval Patrol, which i would imagine is analogous to the U.S. Coast Guard... Starfleet is the USN, and the Federation Naval Patrol is the Coast Guard.

Part of this has been seen in the Pocket DS9 Relaunch too. Vaughn is overseeing the absorption of the Bajoran Militia in one of the last chapters of Unity and mentions that there were plans to build an Academy Annex on Bajor.

Except that the DS9 Relaunch has established rather firmly in the post-Unity books that the Militia continues to exist as Bajor's domestic space force, operating alongside Starfleet. In particular, they've been featured prominently in Bajor: Fragments and Omens from Worlds of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Volume II.
 
This has been discussed before... pretty much, the Federation Starfleet assumes total command of all "military" operations in Federation space. The Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, and Bolians, are among the UFP races we've heard have merchant fleets.

In VOY, Tom Paris mentioned a Federation Naval Patrol, which i would imagine is analogous to the U.S. Coast Guard... Starfleet is the USN, and the Federation Naval Patrol is the Coast Guard.

Part of this has been seen in the Pocket DS9 Relaunch too. Vaughn is overseeing the absorption of the Bajoran Militia in one of the last chapters of Unity and mentions that there were plans to build an Academy Annex on Bajor.

Except that the DS9 Relaunch has established rather firmly in the post-Unity books that the Militia continues to exist as Bajor's domestic space force, operating alongside Starfleet. In particular, they've been featured prominently in Bajor: Fragments and Omens from Worlds of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Volume II.
Ah ok. I'll be honest I haven't read many following Unity.
 
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