Original Sins (or, My Grypes with TWOK!!)

[Franklin]

^I think Joachim was supposed to be Joaquin, but they cast a younger, fairer, less burly actor in the role. Interpreting Joachim as Khan's son was the way Greg Cox's Eugenics Wars novels reconciled that discrepancy.

OMG! They cast a younger, fairer, less burly actor? Teh noes!

 

[Trekkin]

^Huh? There was a significant number of women in the original group.

I accidentally cut it out of my quote, but the person I was replying to theorized that Marla was the mother of a fair few of Khans crew.

 

[Marsden]

I also neglected to mention that I didn't think Marla was the only Mother of said crew, just that Khan was the father. Khan certainly seems to be the kind of man that feels one wife isn't enough.

And I though son Joaquin was named after freind Joaquin from Space Seed who was killed.

Well if Bill J, self appointed Knight of the Abrams Table...

I love that title!

♫
We're knights of the Abrahms table
We Trek when ere we're able
We like gelled hair, and the odd lens flare
And a film that's access-able
♫

This is great. This is what I like, good natured fun and no one putting anyone down.

 

[BigJake]

I was just about to say, "On second thought, let's not go to Hollywood. Silly place."

 

[Christopher]

I was just about to say, "On second thought, let's not go to Hollywood. Silly place."

Which is pretty close to my reaction after the one time I did go there.

 

[martok2112]

I love that title!

♫
We're knights of the Abrahms table
We Trek when ere we're able
We like gelled hair, and the odd lens flare
And a film that's access-able
♫

This is great. This is what I like, good natured fun and no one putting anyone down.

I was just about to say, "On second thought, let's not go to Hollywood. Silly place."

It"s only a model!


Yes, this is such jocularity. (As Father Mulcahy might say. )

Lovin' it!

 

[BillJ]

It always surprises me that no one picks on the film for changing Khan's origin. He goes from selective breeding in "Space Seed" to genetic engineering in The Wrath of Khan.

 

[martok2112]

It always surprises me that no one picks on the film for changing Khan's origin. He goes from selective breeding in "Space Seed" to genetic engineering in The Wrath of Khan.

It's a half dozen of one, Seven of Nine of another.

 

[BigJake]

Meh, that's more along the lines of "how did he know Chekhov" type stuff for me. More of a nitpick. (And actually I like the genetic engineering terminology better for explaining what he can do.)

 

[BillJ]

Meh, that's more along the lines of "how did he know Chekhov" type stuff for me. More of a nitpick.

Not really. You can handwave Chekov as being part of the lower decks during "Space Seed". But selective breeding and genetic engineering seem to be two distinctly different things.

(And actually I like the genetic engineering terminology better for explaining what he can do.)

I do as well. Doesn't change the fact that they contradict each other.

 

[martok2112]

Meh, that's more along the lines of "how did he know Chekhov" type stuff for me. More of a nitpick.

Not really. You can handwave Chekov as being part of the lower decks during "Space Seed". But selective breeding and genetic engineering seem to be two distinctly different things.

(And actually I like the genetic engineering terminology better for explaining what he can do.)

I do as well. Doesn't change the fact that they contradict each other.

And if you dip a cookie in it, the shit'll blow up.

 

[Christopher]

Selective breeding does make a bit more sense, historically. To be an adult conqueror in the early 1990s, he would've had to be born no later than 1970, and the first genetic engineering didn't happen until 1973 -- and that was just of bacteria. However, the eugenics movement goes back to the 1890s, and various groups in the early 20th century did try to use selective breeding to produce superior humans -- no doubt what Carey Wilbur was referencing in "Space Seed." Of course, those eugenicists were blinded by the racist assumption that "superior" meant "white," so their efforts were doomed to failure. But if some group had recognized the value of genetic diversity and had picked out the finest human specimens regardless of ethnicity, and if they'd managed to produce 4-5 generations between the mid-1890s and the late 1960s, and if they'd gotten really lucky, maybe they could've produced something like Khan. It's unlikely, but at least within the realm of possibility given the known history of eugenics. Having Khan created by genetic engineering requires the science of genetics to be decades more advanced than it was in real life.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

^Or you could go with the paranoid explanation that things happen behind our backs that we are never made aware of. Like the testing of LSD on soldiers or stuff like that.

 

[Marsden]

I think selective breeding was the genetic engineering of the era that Space Seed was written. While we don't see it as a synonym today, it was at the time.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

I think selective breeding was the genetic engineering of the era that Space Seed was written. While we don't see it as a synonym today, it was at the time.

Selective breeding may work with dogs because of their short maturation periods but with humans it would take millenia to see any significant changes.

 

[Christopher]

I think selective breeding was the genetic engineering of the era that Space Seed was written. While we don't see it as a synonym today, it was at the time.

Not really, since the underlying principles are different. TWOK just updated/retconned the term to be a better fit to modern knowledge.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

I think selective breeding was the genetic engineering of the era that Space Seed was written. While we don't see it as a synonym today, it was at the time.

Not really, since the underlying principles are different. TWOK just updated/retconned the term to be a better fit to modern knowledge.

I am not sure the term "retconned" applies here.

 

[BillJ]

I think selective breeding was the genetic engineering of the era that Space Seed was written. While we don't see it as a synonym today, it was at the time.

Not really, since the underlying principles are different. TWOK just updated/retconned the term to be a better fit to modern knowledge.

I am not sure the term "retconned" applies here.

Retroactive continuity. The new overwriting the old.

 

[Christopher]

I am not sure the term "retconned" applies here.

I don't see why not. TWOK's makers weren't nearly as concerned about continuity details as we fans tend to be today. That's true for most people making sequels or revivals; they use what they like and change what gets in their way. (Like how every Planet of the Apes sequel in the original series retconned something about the previous movie while pretending to be a continuous sequence. Or, to draw on Harve Bennett's own career, the way the series version of The Six Million Dollar Man ignored or rewrote many details from the pilot movie for same.) They tweaked a number of details for TWOK, like the age and ethnic composition of Khan's followers, the presence of Chekov for the original events, the available costuming and technology (Khan's people have a movie-era medical monitor in their compound and Khan wears a broken TWOK-era uniform belt buckle as a medallion, neither of which existed when they were stranded), etc. Not to mention ignoring all the previous times that Kirk had faced the death of someone dear to him (Gary, Edith, Sam & Aurelan, Miramanee and his unborn child). Not to mention giving him a never-before-seen old flame and illegitimate son, one of the corniest, most cliched kinds of retcon from '80s/'90s TV. (See also Steve Austin's never-mentioned son in the first bionic revival movie, and MacGyver's hitherto-unknown son in his series finale, which was meant as a potential spinoff pilot.)

 

[kirkfan]

I am not sure the term "retconned" applies here.

I don't see why not. TWOK's makers weren't nearly as concerned about continuity details as we fans tend to be today. That's true for most people making sequels or revivals; they use what they like and change what gets in their way. (Like how every Planet of the Apes sequel in the original series retconned something about the previous movie while pretending to be a continuous sequence. Or, to draw on Harve Bennett's own career, the way the series version of The Six Million Dollar Man ignored or rewrote many details from the pilot movie for same.) They tweaked a number of details for TWOK, like the age and ethnic composition of Khan's followers, the presence of Chekov for the original events, the available costuming and technology (Khan's people have a movie-era medical monitor in their compound and Khan wears a broken TWOK-era uniform belt buckle as a medallion, neither of which existed when they were stranded), etc. Not to mention ignoring all the previous times that Kirk had faced the death of someone dear to him (Gary, Edith, Sam & Aurelan, Miramanee and his unborn child). Not to mention giving him a never-before-seen old flame and illegitimate son, one of the corniest, most cliched kinds of retcon from '80s/'90s TV. (See also Steve Austin's never-mentioned son in the first bionic revival movie, and MacGyver's hitherto-unknown son in his series finale, which was meant as a potential spinoff pilot.)

I agree about most of that, except maybe for the old flame and son. Given how old the son is we can assume that the "romance" happened way before the "five year mission" and that's why we never heard of it.