Original series warp 10 Vs Voyager warp 10

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Kevin_treker351, Sep 29, 2021.

  1. publiusr

    publiusr Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Borg might have two transwarp drives…a ship drive and the “subway “ conduit…that and the varduuar may be closest to SW hyperspace…though ‘09 Trek does too. Beyond initial Enterprise effect is what I think a true “warp drive” best resembles.
     
  2. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Commodore Commodore

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    I think the reason that the Borg has the Transwarp Tunnel Network is that one vessel opens up / paves the way for the Transwarp Conduit, they put in stabilizing Ring arms that run on it's own power sources to prevent the Transwarp Conduit from naturally collapsing in.

    Then any vessel can take that conduit ride for "Free" (only spending Impulse power to get in and move about).

    That's a HUGE tactical advantage of not having to spend excess energy to go Transwarp after you pay the initial energy to pave the initial tunnel and the sustainer energy for the Support Ring arms / structure that Janeway blew up in the ST:VOY Series Finale.

    And that's why when I create the Transwarp Highway Network for civilian travel, I only have 1 end point on each side, no multi-link highways.

    I want to prevent terrorist attacks from causing a catastrophic cascading failure event.

    Every Transwarp Conduit Highway is single lane in each direction, and are on independent power systems each.

    Captain Kathyrn Janeway, wanted as a All Time Terrorist for her acts of mass destruction towards the Borg Queen and her people =D.
     
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  3. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    If somebody believes that episodes happen in production order or stardate order, they migth e want to watch them in those oders to see them in the order they "relaly" happen in.
     
  4. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Airdate order seldom feels relevant past the original airing, which most of the current audiences would have missed in case of the two shows where there is a difference.

    That is, only TOS and TNG ever screwed up their first season so that the three types of ordering would differ. DS9 and VOY already used stardates chronologically and ENT applied plainspeak Earthdates, and episodes were aired in the general order of production; LDS basically goes sequentially, too. There is no saving early DIS stardates, but it's all one big lump of production with a fixed ordering of eps anyway, there being no "choice" available to us. PIC, the same, only without odd back-and-forth stardates.

    In retrospect, stardates are the easiest way to go. You don't need to know any backstage stuff or ancient history: what you see is what you get. And as said, only the first seasons of TOS, TNG and DIS were filmed "deliberately" out of order, and the first one actually improves a bit if ordered by stardate. (TNG is the really weird one, with stardates reshuffled out of originally chronological order in the final drafts of the scripts, while DIS S1 just plain doesn't care.)

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  5. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Commodore Commodore

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    No. No they are not.
    Starting from Episode 1, Season 1 and following the Netflix/DVD order from there is the easiest way to go, at least in TNG it does not create any continuity errors.
    Plus you still have to go through the whole dance of looking up what stardates even mean and how you'd go about ordering. And you'd have to find the stardate for every episode, which either involves going to memory Alpha or a similar guide or waiting for Picard's captains log at the beginning (both of which are already to much effort for me to decide the 'viewing order' of an episodic show) and then then flit about the Netflix/DVD menu to get to the "next" episode, rather than just let the next episode start in autoplay.
    Ain't nobody got time for that! Might as well order the episode by the length of Troi's hair.

    It just seems so needlessly complicated and esoteric to me.
     
  6. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    if a cube can open a transwarp conduit on its own what’s the point of them also having regular warp drive? Both borg attacks fail because they switched to warp far from earth instead of just exiting transwarp in the sol system. Also, in the final episode of voyager the borg HAVE a transwarp conduit near earth, suggesting that they learnt their lesson and are preparing a third attack.
     
  7. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If a starship has warp engines, why have impulse as well?

    And the Borg attacks appeared to be splendid successes both, to a point. The first did not merely aim to reach Earth: it made significant detours to Wolf 359, Saturn, Jupiter and Mars on the way there, with the apparent additional aim of fighting as many Federation assets as possible, and learning from the fights. And the second seemed to have been mounted to draw Picard and his crew into the past, as their role in founding the deliciously assimilable UFP was crucial...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  8. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Commodore Commodore

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    Sometimes you don't need to drive at 100+ mph in life, ergo sometimes the Borg don't need to use Transwarp drive given the amount of resources it costs to use that. It's another FTL travel tool that has it's "Optimal use" range.

    I don't think the Borg really sees it that way, they're taking out all the initial guards / defenses one by one instead of having to deal with all of them at once.

    Or they were preparing to use it for future incursions with multiple Cubes about to pop out at the same time for a future attack and Janeway prevented that scenario from happening any time soon.

    And StarFleet will be on the lookout for those Transwarp Conduit Exit Apertures now that they know what to look for and prematurely collapse them from the outside if they ever see one near their territory.

    The fact that they were a "Secret" and Unknown to the UFP/StarFleet could've significantly altered history.
     
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  9. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Welcome to Star Trek fandom. Everything must be explained in a needlessly complicated way.
     
  10. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I can see your point with this, but then, you come up with the premise of having to explain how the UFP escaped assimilation/destruction in the alternate timeline from which Admiral Janeway originated from.

    One possible explanation is the Borg haven't gotten around to executing their plan of sending hordes of cubes to Earth - there can be large periods of time between assimilation attempts (especially on the other side of the galaxy).

    We also know that in the alternate timeline, Voyager took longer to get back, and Admiral Janeway mentioned she ran into the Borg a few more times - which may have kept the Borg's attention away from UFP in general and its possible the crew thwarted those invasion plans (somehow)... and because of those encounters, Janeway developed deployable armor and transphasic torpedoes (among other thing - which SF got thanks to Hypersubpace tech), it further helped to keep them at bay even if the Borg DID try to invade.

    I suppose its also possible (likely even) her Voyager acquired intelligence about the TW hub and Borg activities from those encounters (it wouldn't be the first time because they already did something similar in 'Dark Frontier') which she relaid back to SF via Hypersubspace, helping them to shut down the TW exit aperture near Earth (and others in the AQ) - that would explain her knowledge of the hub she was taking VOY to in order to return the ship home sooner.

    But, Admiral Janeway also pretty much shuts down Chakotay's proposal on taking VOY to the AQ and destroying the TW Hub from there, because there's nothing there apart from exit apertures - this kinda terminates the proposal that SF could terminate the TW conduits at their exit points even if they knew of their existence - but then, Voyager DID manage to collapse a TW conduit in Dark Frontier with about 4 Photon Torpedoes (although that was the one created by the Delta Flyer when they left from VOY to rescue 7 of 9 - which could mean you can collapse the conduit at its point of origin, but not its exit aperture).

    If that's the case, then Voyager in the original timeline may have ended up going on a mission to a Borg installation in the Beta Quadrant to thwart the invasion of Earth and UFP before they got back... who knows.
    It could have been a combination of efforts... VOY encountered the Borg a few times, developed tactical systems, the Borg 'may' have attempted to invade Earth, but got thwarted with a defensive fleet which was armed with Transphasic torpedoes and ablative armor - so they were able to deteer the Borg thanks to VOY's efforts.

    We don't know when the Transphasic torpedoes or ablative armor were devloped though, so its difficult to determine the exact sequence of events or when a potential invasion could take plece - but its possible VOY was simply keeping the Borg's attention away from UFP in the original timeline - and despite all the crewmen who died... maybe that future was better from canon point of view for the UFP.

    Although, in that original timeline, the TW hub is alluded that it still exists (nothing was mentioned it was destroyed - otherwise, it would probably be mentioned).
    So, who knows if the new timeline is actually better. On one hand VOY got the future tech and possibly the database from admiral Janeway's shuttle which would have given the prime timeline better chances in the long run... on the other hand, the original timeline UFP is able to keep the Borg at bay because of different sequences of events, but the Hub still exists (as does the Queen perhaps?).

    With the destruction of main unicomplex (the heart of the Collective), its very conceivable the Borg wouldn't be able to recover as easily as it was suggested in the novels. Destroying the queen at remote ships away from Unimatrix 1 is relatively simple and she can just respawn at the unicomplex... but what happens when you infect the queen while she's at the unicomplex which also ends up obliterated along with the TW network?
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
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  11. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Watching episodes in Stardate order is problematic, and I don't just mean the hassle of having to shuffle around episodes, discs, etc. and keep track.

    I've pointed out before that the Stardate numbering shouldn't necessarily be taken as evidence that an event took place "before" or "after" another event, from the point of view of the characters. Stardates were never meant to convey consistency or progression of time across different episodes; only within a single episode as the digit at the end of the stardate increases. Per the original Trek writer's guide, stardates would account for relativistic travel, physical position within the galaxy, etc., etc. So stuff that happened "later" could end up being logged with a lower star date than what happened last week or the week before.

    Kor
     
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  12. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Not to mention those episodes of TOS which had overlapping Stardates.
    How would we watch those? :shrug:
     
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  13. at Quark's

    at Quark's Commodore Commodore

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    Simultaneously, of course! Just put a few screens side by side (or smaller windows on your monitor).

    The challenge of course would be to also make them overlap as accurately as possible. For example, if stardate x is mentioned at the beginning of episode A and in the middle of episode B,, you should try to start episode A at such a time during episode B that these stardates are mentioned at the same moment.

    The problem would get even worse if both episodes contain multiple star dates, in which case you'll have to make sure the playback speeds are adjusted. If say, episode A and B would contain mentions of stardates 1000.0, and 1001.0, but in episode A, there's 10 minutes between those mentions and in episode B, it's 20 minutes, obviously the playback speed of episode B should be double that of episode A.

    After all, we want to do this as accurately as possible :)
     
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  14. dupersuper

    dupersuper Commodore Commodore

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    I don't recall warp 9 being used in that episode, but if I'm misremembering, I guess the explanation for it taking a long time at warp 9 would be...that it's far away.
     
  15. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    There is no TNG episode of that description.

    But we have "Paradise Syndrome" where Spock apparently first commands the hero ship to warp 9 or better for several hours, and then sails back at the speed of a coasting asteroid for two months. If multiple warp-9-hours equals just 60 light-days at the very tops, interstellar travel at warp speed ought to be impossible.

    Then again, the travel at "Paradise Syndrome" wasn't interstellar. In two time travel adventures, we see with our own eyes that doing extreme warp close to Sol means that the ship is moving at fairly low sublight. Quite possibly Spock got slowed down by the proximity of the local star here. Likewise for all sorts of other insystem adventures: "Broken Bow" can have both "six minutes to Neptune and back" and "one episode via Rigel to Qo'noS if not back", "Best of Both Worlds" can have an exciting chase from Jupiter to Earth at what amounts to two times ilghtspeed at best, and so forth. Plus we understand why starships send shuttles at impulse to ferry people into star systems from far away: warp would not be noticeably faster, so better have a mere shuttle be delayed rather than an entire ship.

    Warp between stars isn't that easily handwaved. And the idea of "fast lanes" as the explanation for discrepancies must be applied in strict moderation, considering that we never hear of such fast lanes in actual Star Trek!

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  16. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    didn’t they have an issue with their warp drive at that point?
     
  17. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Nope, not at that point yet. Instead, they were "beginning to show signs of stress" after "hours" of sustained flight, with an unknown amount of time remaining. So we get our contrast of at least two warphours vs. at most 60 lighthours for what is supposed to be normal warp 9.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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