Original Generations Uniforms

[C.E. Evans]

Believe it. Never underestimate the ability of Trek fans to complain about something.

It wasn't nerdrage in general I was questioning. It was that VOY was a direct response to what fans (who had no real way of bitching to the producers) were apparently upset about with DS9. I doubt UPN cared what the fans wanted.

They definitely cared what viewers wanted.

The intention was merely to create a Star Trek show for the then fledgling UPN network (a no-brainer given how popular TNG was at the time). As DS9 was set on an alien space station, VOY was developed around the more familiar idea of a Federation starship exploring the unknown.

There was more to it than that. Between the idea of the ship being lost in unknown space and the tension between the Starfleeters and the Maquis, there was supposed to be quite a difference from what we saw in TNG.

And we saw that, but it wasn't the driving force in the show. More than anything it was the basic Trek concept of a starship out on the final frontier, encountering new life-forms and new civilizations. The initial Maquis conflict, being stuck in a distant part of the Galaxy, and even the idea of a female captain were among a number of different twists to distinguish it from previous shows.

But as I said in an earlier post, the Maquis thing really was something that couldn't be sustained long anyway unless the Voyager was a Maquis ship rather than a Starfleet one. Even so, without the Cardassians to fight in the DMZ (their reason for being), they'd just be rebels without a cause in the Delta Quadrant.

 

[Lance]

The uniforms do look a bit rubbish to my eyes, a somewhat unsuccessful attempt to do something a bit Wrath of Khan-ey, but not as good.

I suspect, as others have said, that the "Not wanting to introduce too many new elements" was just the producers being coy/polite to the designer rather than going "And then we came to our senses and realised they sucked".

As for what we do get, in theory it should work as there is indeed no reason for multiple styles of uniform to be in use as in real uniformed organisations (not even just military ones, I work for Tesco and we have about three variants).

But because Trek is otherwise fairly ridged about how the cast of one show will wear the one uniform at all times with only minor variations (the odd jacket or stealth outfit), presumably for budget/ease of continuity reasons (TMP and the new films are the only ones to go to town with the idea and likely had more money for costumes than any other film/show) it can't help but look strange.

[You could argue, as I think Worf does in DS9 at one point, that because the uniforms are made of SPACE fabric they can cope with the full range of temperatures and environments meaning you don't need more than one version. But even then, for times like when they go Borg hunting in Descent you'd think they'd have less stand out brightly coloured versions with some body armour]

Especially the way its presented, it never comes over as people wearing the appropriate uniform for the right situation, they just gradually shift over to the new ones over the course of the film as if it is a formal uniform change rather than there being two types (I think Picard is the only one to change back to the TNG type after putting the DS9 one on). Which makes the lack of coordination on having the crew just all start doing it on the same day seem the odder (especially as the women seem to be stuck with the tighter TNG types, I wonder what motivated Picard to keep them in those?).

Having to stick most of them in reused DS9 uniforms rather than specially made ones doesn't help either, Riker's is especially ill fitting.

Well said, sir. For me it isn't so much that there isn't a solid case to be made for lots of uniform variants (indeed, as yourself and others have stated, it's in fact more logical to see lots of different types of uniform), but more that Star Trek was usually so rigid about everybody wearing broadly the same thing that the DS9 jumpsuits can't help but stand out when seen alongside the usual TNG unis, especially given we've never seen this crew wearing the DS9 jumpsuits before. As you say, only TMP and maybe TNG season one were so loose with showing so many different types of uniform together on-screen at the same time. It does lend things in GENS a sort of schizophrenic feel, on a costuming level.

 

[C.E. Evans]

The DS9 uniforms didn't really look out of place or weird alongside the TNG uniforms, especially since they appeared earlier on both DS9 and TNG. They just looked like fatigues, with the TNG uniforms being the standard duty version.

 

[Lance]

^ Not as a standard outfit for the TNG crew, I meant. Obviously when Julian crossed over to TNG in "Birthright" he was the only guy seen in the DS9 jumpsuit, on the Enterprise sets.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I never saw the DS9 uniforms as standard outfits. They always seemed to be a variant/special work uniform. At best, they might have been a short-lived interim design before the arrival of the First Contact uniforms, IMO.

 

[inflatabledalek]

Well said, sir. For me it isn't so much that there isn't a solid case to be made for lots of uniform variants (indeed, as yourself and others have stated, it's in fact more logical to see lots of different types of uniform), but more that Star Trek was usually so rigid about everybody wearing broadly the same thing that the DS9 jumpsuits can't help but stand out when seen alongside the usual TNG unis, especially given we've never seen this crew wearing the DS9 jumpsuits before. As you say, only TMP and maybe TNG season one were so loose with showing so many different types of uniform together on-screen at the same time. It does lend things in GENS a sort of schizophrenic feel, on a costuming level.

Yeah, I mean, even in TNG season 3 when they were in the interim period where the "Proper" characters used the new uniforms and background extras used the old ones it still wound up feeling fairly regimented.

In that the minor guest characters would usually have lower ranks so it wound up feeling like higher officers had fancy uniforms and lower ones had the old ones. It's only really O'Brien- depending on where you fall on what his rank actually is in TNG- and Wesley at the end of the season who really fall outside that bracket. After season 3 the pattern roughly held the same in that the lower ranks/minor parts usually wore the tighter-but-with-collar uniforms rather than just the women as happened once their position on the ship/the size of their role improved.

Even if you assume the Enterprise in Generations has started allowing both forms of uniform as is appropriate for the sitaution I'm not really sure it makes perfect sense, shouldn't they be wearing the more formal version whilst on the bridge and the rough and tumble version whilst in the wreckage of the ship/on the planet and away missions? The divide isn't that clear.

Of course, the uniforms are the least of the oddities about the film (I mean, we're talking about a movie that hopes desperately you don't remember how Kirk got into the Nexus when it claims you can't get into the Nexus by flying into it on a ship...), but because it's such an immediate visual one it really does stand out, perhaps more than it should.

 

[Hober Mallow]

I didn't even realize there'd been a uniform change on TNG until probably until the fourth season. The uniforms weren't that different.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Even if you assume the Enterprise in Generations has started allowing both forms of uniform as is appropriate for the sitaution I'm not really sure it makes perfect sense, shouldn't they be wearing the more formal version whilst on the bridge and the rough and tumble version whilst in the wreckage of the ship/on the planet and away missions? The divide isn't that clear.

It seems to be dependent on whatever specific work a person is doing at the time. Some may be doing grunt work while others aren't.

But this isn't the first time we've seen personnel wearing different uniforms for different kinds of work. Work coveralls were seen being used alongside standard uniforms in both TNG and TOS as well.

 

[Dukhat]

They definitely cared what viewers wanted.

Since almost every show UPN ever produced but one tanked, I doubt they even had any idea what viewers wanted.

 

[Mudd]

Since almost every show UPN ever produced but one tanked...

That would be America's Next Top Model?

 

[Dukhat]

Since almost every show UPN ever produced but one tanked...

That would be America's Next Top Model?

Make that two shows

 

[Hober Mallow]

They definitely cared what viewers wanted.

Since almost every show UPN ever produced but one tanked, I doubt they even had any idea what viewers wanted.

Of course they knew what viewers wanted, and what viewers wanted were... wrestler cameos!

 

[diankra]

It was Janeway's call from the start of their trek home that the Voyager's crew would be a Starfleet crew and would uphold themselves to that standard.

Oh, I know that. My point was that it shouldn't have been that way. That choice made the show no different than TNG.

And, aside from the problem over the Maquis crew agreeing to that ( which could be seen as the point Janeway was making as an assertion of her position)... if the uniforms are newly replicated each day, isn't using them a waste of scarce resources? Though equally, if that's been the case until now then I guess the ship just wouldn't have any facilities to wash old-fashioned clothes, so they might have no choice about it.

I wish Voyager had gone properly with the mis-matched over-stretched crew idea. Tho I know it was what the writers wanted to do, but the bosses said no. ( which is not a Berman bash: his bosses).

 

[Commishsleer]

I'm thinking now that the TNG movies should have used new uniforms.

While I didn't really like the TMP uniforms at least they indicated a change from the TOS series.

I'm not judging the merits of those particular uniforms for TNG, I'm saying they just should have had something new and totally different.

Were TPTB really serious when they said they couldn't afford new uniforms and had to recycle them from DS9. Just how much did those uniforms cost to make?

 

[Lance]

Were TPTB really serious when they said they couldn't afford new uniforms and had to recycle them from DS9. Just how much did those uniforms cost to make?

Yeah, it's screwy. Apparently they could afford to make a few of each for Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner, but they say they couldn't stump up the Benjamins to reclothe Frakes, Burton, Sirtis, Dorn or McFadden? Yeah, right.

So they went half-assed, by loaning Frakes and Burton a couple of spare DS9 uniforms that didn't even fit them properly.

Riker looked like his 'new' uniform had just come back from the cleaners and had shrunk. Or maybe it's just that Riker himself expanded between scenes.

Frankly I think they could've saved a lot more money (and retained better visual consistency) just by forgetting about new uniforms altogether. That way, they wouldn't have needed to supply new threads for Stewart and Spiner either.

 

[Commishsleer]

GEN had a budget of $38 million.

So how much for 10 uniforms in 1994? $5000, $50000, $5 million? Its ridiculous that cost would be a consideration.

I prefer to think they hated the new uniforms so much they didn't have time to make new DS9 ones and be ready for shooting the next day. Or they showed the test scenes to some uber fans and they died of shock at the new uniforms or something like that.

 

[F. King Daniel]

IIRC, the TNG hero unis cost $3000 apiece. So that's $30,000 wasted.

 

[Commishsleer]

IIRC, the TNG hero unis cost $3000 apiece. So that's $30,000 wasted.

Not wasted.

A way of making the movie look better in every single scene with the main characters (aside from Picard and Data).

Having Riker looking too fat for his clothes is inexplicable in a movie with a budget of $38 million.

Besides you could sell screen-used clothes on ebay for a great deal more than $3000 after the movie was completed I'm sure.

 

[drt]

Well, except for the part where eBay didn't exist yet.

 

[Dukhat]

GEN had a budget of $38 million.

So how much for 10 uniforms in 1994? $5000, $50000, $5 million? Its ridiculous that cost would be a consideration.

I prefer to think they hated the new uniforms so much they didn't have time to make new DS9 ones and be ready for shooting the next day. Or they showed the test scenes to some uber fans and they died of shock at the new uniforms or something like that.

IIRC, the TNG hero unis cost $3000 apiece. So that's $30,000 wasted.

Actually, a lot of the wardrobe budget went to the 19th century sailing uniforms that were used for a total of about 15 minutes. For a holodeck scene that was really unnecessary to the movie's plot.