I like to think that The Constellation was a Constitution style starship despite a few differences! It's gotta be one of the twelve! How many starships were in the fleet in TNG era, does anyone know?
JB
JB
Original 12 Constitution class ships
- Thread starter garak1
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Yep. That's a good theory. I've always assumed it was something like that. Divided by fleet yards rather than species sounds more plausible to me though.
Well, I for one like to believe that there are 8 confirmed Constitution class ships based on TOS, and one implied, being the Constitution, itself, for a total of 9.
The remastered episode Court Martial depicts the Intrepid as a Connie, so that is 10, if you consider the remastered versions also canon.
As for other ships being cited as Connies, nothing on screen I know if confirms them as such. Sorry Republic and Faragut. And Yorktown, all we saw of you was the bridge, and we don't really know if you became the Enterprise-A or if it was the Ti-Ho, or the E-A was its own ship.
Now, I don't buy the argument that based on registry alone, as some have tried to argue, that the Constellation isn't a Connie. We have no reason NOT to think it is a Connie. Visually, the external shots of it are identical to a Connie class. Registration numbers have never had any significant meaning, nor is there any canon explanation that the "17 prefix" means a specific class designation as a constitution. Maybe the Constellation had a "10" prefix instead of a "17" was because it was assigned to a different sector, or the fact it was commanded by a Commodore, and not a captain, or it was reusing a registry from an earlier Constellation. We will never know. The only thing certain is that it was 1017 because some FX tech felt it was easier to rearrange the Enterprise's number for whatever reason, rather than install a whole new number.
Yeah, the Constellation was definitely a Connie as far as I am concerned (literally and in the constitutional sense!), and I think it is reasonable to assume internal re-configurations went on, which explains the differences between the Enterprise and Constellation. I am sure no two Constitution class ships were identical inside. We know the Enterprise had massive changes when it was refit, and had several bridge modules.
As for how many ships were around in the TNG era? No set number I am aware of, but based on DS9, it's got to be in the hundreds.
I think inside TOS itself, the wall plaque causes some problems. It being "Starship Class", I doubt there's a USS Starship. I don't have an issue with it being called a Constitution class, but it may be a stretch that there is a USS Constitution, as that naming convention came into being during TNG and may not have been intended in TOS.
Regarding the Constellation as a Constitution-class ship, count me in the NO column.
While it's true that three versions of the Enterprise made it on screen and were all meant to be the same ship, I discount the 33 inch model as it was just used as a placeholder for some shots in "The Cage" because the 11-footer was not yet finished. And the differences between the pilot and production versions of the 11-footer were cosmetic enough that we can safely chalk it up to a post WNMHGB refit and that there was a confusion of stock footage. I feel we can also safely discount the use of the AMT kit in TWT as that was just the ship orbiting the station way in the distance.
But up-close, it's a completely different story. A side-by-side comparison of the AMT to the 11-footer shows that the two ships are proportionally different in exactly every aspect. Really the only similarity is the general arrangement and the overall style. But not one angle or curve in the kit's lines match any part of the 11-footer. For me this is the strongest arguement for different class.
Secondly, the weird registry. Now, nothing has officially been ever established about the meaning of this number and you can peg it with whatever idea you prefer. That's fine. I prefer to think of them as broadly chronological.
Thirdly, and lastly (and most weakly), I cite that when Kirk is looking for the Auxiliary Control Room, he almost walks past the door before noticing Decker inside. This (I'll admit quite tenuously) suggests to me that Kirk was not quite sure where the door was and was looking for it. If this ship was exactly like the Enterprise, then he should have gone right to the door with purpose, since it would exactly match the location on his own ship. For me, the uncertainly suggests that he was on a ship with a somewhat unfamiliar layout.
I will concede that the behind-the-scenes intent was that the ship was an exact match to Enterprise, but I think the execution leaves it pretty open to interpretation. For my money, I, too, like the idea that the NCC-1017 was a much older cruiser that had been uprated to Connie specs.
For what it's worth (and I place very little stock in TOS-r anyway) I've read that Okuda wanted to have a Constellation mesh made to more closely resemble the lines of the AMT kit, but time and money dictated the reuse of the Enterprise mesh instead. So take that for what you will.
--Alex
While it's true that three versions of the Enterprise made it on screen and were all meant to be the same ship, I discount the 33 inch model as it was just used as a placeholder for some shots in "The Cage" because the 11-footer was not yet finished. And the differences between the pilot and production versions of the 11-footer were cosmetic enough that we can safely chalk it up to a post WNMHGB refit and that there was a confusion of stock footage. I feel we can also safely discount the use of the AMT kit in TWT as that was just the ship orbiting the station way in the distance.
But up-close, it's a completely different story. A side-by-side comparison of the AMT to the 11-footer shows that the two ships are proportionally different in exactly every aspect. Really the only similarity is the general arrangement and the overall style. But not one angle or curve in the kit's lines match any part of the 11-footer. For me this is the strongest arguement for different class.
Secondly, the weird registry. Now, nothing has officially been ever established about the meaning of this number and you can peg it with whatever idea you prefer. That's fine. I prefer to think of them as broadly chronological.
Thirdly, and lastly (and most weakly), I cite that when Kirk is looking for the Auxiliary Control Room, he almost walks past the door before noticing Decker inside. This (I'll admit quite tenuously) suggests to me that Kirk was not quite sure where the door was and was looking for it. If this ship was exactly like the Enterprise, then he should have gone right to the door with purpose, since it would exactly match the location on his own ship. For me, the uncertainly suggests that he was on a ship with a somewhat unfamiliar layout.
I will concede that the behind-the-scenes intent was that the ship was an exact match to Enterprise, but I think the execution leaves it pretty open to interpretation. For my money, I, too, like the idea that the NCC-1017 was a much older cruiser that had been uprated to Connie specs.
For what it's worth (and I place very little stock in TOS-r anyway) I've read that Okuda wanted to have a Constellation mesh made to more closely resemble the lines of the AMT kit, but time and money dictated the reuse of the Enterprise mesh instead. So take that for what you will.
--Alex
I agree. During each 4-year model cycle, Toyota makes slight changes after two years. The basic body shape and design of the Camry is the same, but they might make the tail-lights slightly different, etc. But, we still think of it as the same model. So, after the Constellation was in the field for a few years, and the designers collected some feedback, they might have tweaked the location of the auxiliary control room, etc. for the Enterprise. It's still the same basic class.
This is an interesting idea. Maybe the layout was slightly different, but isn't it also possible that Kirk, walking through the devastated corridors in shock, navigating through debris, he might have momentarily missed the auxiliary doorway?
The appearance of a schematic diagram made for "Space Seed" from which "Constituon Class" is based:
More about this graphic and the "Space Seed" script can be found here:
http://www.startrekhistory.com/article4.html
More about this graphic and the "Space Seed" script can be found here:
http://www.startrekhistory.com/article4.html
It's an even bigger assumption to say that the Eagle is Constitution class. Not only do we never see it, but its registry number (956?) is too low. People keep saying it's a Connie because it's represented by an icon of one on the Operation Retrieve status chart (in ST VI) but that doesn't mean anything.
Maybe all Connies do not have the same upgrade schedule based on patrol length and battle damage?
This is an example of how great plans in the minds of the production team didn't play out on the screen....
Matt Jeffries is quoted as saying that the 1701 in the registry means the Enterprise is the first model of the 17th design... which would lead to the conclusion that the Enterprise and Constellation were not the exact same designs... and yet, the reality of the production is that an Enterprise model was used for the Constellation and the Enterprise's decals were simply rearranged to (I assume) make it more obvious that it was a different ship.
I always wondered how much Matt Jeffries had to do with the model of the Constellation... who decided the registry should be 1017 rather than, say, 1710?
Matt Jeffries is quoted as saying that the 1701 in the registry means the Enterprise is the first model of the 17th design... which would lead to the conclusion that the Enterprise and Constellation were not the exact same designs... and yet, the reality of the production is that an Enterprise model was used for the Constellation and the Enterprise's decals were simply rearranged to (I assume) make it more obvious that it was a different ship.
I always wondered how much Matt Jeffries had to do with the model of the Constellation... who decided the registry should be 1017 rather than, say, 1710?
I can't say I've ever heard of a Starship called The Eagle especially in the TOS era!
JB
JB
Yeah, that is true. But this is 1960s TV, too. I also believe Kirk has been both quoted as saying the USS in USS Enterprise means United Star Ship, and also United Space Ship. Continuity errors happen. Also, adjustments to continuity happen aas a franchise evolves, both in TOS and also in the shows that followed. things get retconned or dropped. One has to decide for themselves if they want to be slavishly tied to everything verbatim as to what is said or shown on screen on TOS, or if they can ignore some continuity errors, or something as minor as Star Ship class can be ignored. I like continuity, and I like to remain as true to TOS as possible. I also don't like it when shows that followed contradict TOS (IE instances in Enterprise...hello, D6 Klingon Battle cruiser), but at the same time, we can safely say that the Constellation isn't a Miranda or NX class. It's not the (non-canon) Saladin Class. If the Constellation looks like a Connie, inside and out, then I think we can safely say its a Connie.
I'm not really married to either interpretation. Just bringing up the fact that there is some disagreement about what class the Constellation was.
One suggestion was that "Starship Class" was a sub-class or informal name of the Constitution-class that were named British style...after famous starships.
Like the Town-class or River-class ships of the Royal Navy. There was no HMS River nor HMS Town in those classes.
Like the Town-class or River-class ships of the Royal Navy. There was no HMS River nor HMS Town in those classes.
This is true. Even in the real world, Nimitz class aircraft carriers all differ in some way. They aren't all identical. They just share enough design similarities to be placed in the same class. Also, the B52 bomber has been in service since something like 1954(ish?). No B52 in service today is the same plane that rolled off the assembly line in the 1950s. Virtually everything has been replaced on those planes. It's like the Ship of Theseus paradox.
I understand where you are coming from. I just don't find that disagreement with the argument the Constellation isn't a connie.
Both pre and post refit Enterprises were Constitution class, yet they looked radically different. Same for Excelsior class refit. We have also seen slightly different Ambassadors and Nebulas. The idea that some minuscule differences, that probably were not discernible on screen anyway, make Constellation a different class is ludicrous.
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