Original 12 Constitution class ships

[ZapBrannigan]

Question: what does CDST stand for?

 

[Push The Button]

Since TWOK, I have always assumed that Starfleet must have had a sizeable contingent of Miranda class ships, even back in the TOS era that we just never saw onscreen. It would make sense to have a smaller, cheaper workhorse in large numbers that would be deployed primarily within Federation territory to deal with the more mundane day-to-day missions.

 

[JeremiahJT]

I have thought for awhile that the Miranda class was a fairly new replacement for the Soyuz class as the predominant ship class in Starfleet. I know that is not what they intended when they were making the movies, but going by the service date for the Soyuz class from Cause and Effect it makes sense to me.

 

[bolak]

Well, no, not really. To have a Constitution class (which "Space Seed" and "Trouble with Tribbles" do show), you need an actual Constitution. Otherwise the class name means nothing.

In recent US practice yes, but that's not universal on Earth.

For example the Royal Navy uses / used Generic Classes such as County Class and Tribal Class; there was no HMS County or HMS Tribal*.

Constitution Class could refer to a series of ship names associated with aspects of the UFP's founding and constitution; but not likely, I concede.

On the flip-side I don't believe we've ever seen a name-ship of a class in ST**, so who's to say how they do name their classes?

* though these days they tend to use the numeric Type designations
** we don't know to what class, if any, Excelsior belonged. And Defiant was only described as being Escort Class

 

[Spike730]

One missed opportunity for TOS-R to get rid of these registries below 1700.

 

[J.T.B.]

However if one went by 1930s logic, if the USS Portland was wiped back in time to 1810 and they took on a officer from USS Constellation, the captain of Portland could say there are only one other like it in the fleet, even though there are a several similar heavy cruisers in service or under contruction in the mid-1930s.

Agreed, there are many ways to slice and dice it. If talking about USS Arizona in Dec. 1941, for instance, one could say there were only two like her, Pennsylvania class, in the fleet. Or seventeen, battleships. Or eleven, 14-inch gun battleships. Or seven with 14-inch guns in four triple turrets. Or four with 14-inch guns in four triple turrets in the Pacific Fleet as opposed to the Atlantic or US Fleets.

One thing that seems fairly sure about the line is that implies a degree of pride. But whether it's because they are the biggest and baddest, or the newest, or the most advanced design, or handle the toughest missions, would be very hard to say.

 

[Forbin]

No shit, Sherlock.

Charming. Not.

You're right, I'm sorry.
How about "Thank you, Captain Obvious"?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

On the flip-side I don't believe we've ever seen a name-ship of a class in ST

Oh yes we have:

* The Excelsior is the first ship of the class that bears its name (the term 'Excelsior class' has appeared on MANY dedication plaques).

* DS9's Defiant - its plaque says "First starship of her class", and the later USS Valiant has a plaque that says "Defiant class".

* The USS Galaxy, first ship of ITS class, appeared in some of the Dominion War battle scenes on DS9.

* USS'es Oberth and Constellation, first of their classes, appeared in onscreen graphics in ST VI. The latter ship was also mentioned on DS9 a few times.

 

[Timo]

Then there are these explicit "this is a prototype, the first of her kind" occurrences which sort of establish the same thing:

-Prometheus
-Defiant (no need to look for dedication plaque data there, the dialogue has it)
-Dauntless (actually, there's no dialogue to say this would be the first of her kind, it's merely implicit in the registry unless there also was a NX-00A; and yes, a fake)

Okay, so we can argue that Starfleet eventually might have called ships of this sort by some other name than the name of the lead ship. But technically, these are explicit name-ships until something else pops up regarding this.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Something else to remember is that unlike the period when TNG was in production there was a lot that was nebulous during first season of TOS. There was a lot that wasn't yet established and nailed down. A lot was still being conceived as they progressed with each episode.

The overall impression seemed to be that Starfleet was indeed a sizable organization with the twelve Enterprise type heavy cruisers sitting at the top of the heap. This is backed up by the material in The Making Of Star Trek describing the Enterprise type ships as the largest and most powerful ships launched by the Federation.

That's what I always assumed--the Enterprise type was the vanguard of Starfleet, with other ships such as the Antares from "Charlie X" (and the TAS cargo ships it was based on), making up larger numbers of vessels.

If you add other Starfleet ships from TAS (the Huron), suddenly, it does not seem like there's too few Enterprise type ships, since they are a unique class reserved for a special kind of extended mission. All other ships make up the travel, commerce, support and defense interests of the Federation.

 

[Marsden]

Did anyone ever read about Star Fleet Battles?

They really just took what FJTM started and ran with it, but there were lots of ship types, frigates, destroyers, light cruisers, heavy cruisers, and dreadnaughts. Plus support ships like tugs and police vessels. They have a nice variety and it's interesting to think about all of the various ships out there that wouldn't necessarily needed for the stories in episodic television that are there in the background. For example, I doubt anyone would ever need to have a tug ship on an episode, although it could have been possible, the Enterprise rescued one as one of the missions in the 25th anniversary computer game.

 

[Warped9]

Seriously it's highly unlikely anyone would think all of this out (fleet make-up and deployment) before a series were even produced. A novelist might do it for a book or a series of books, but not television producers. No, they'll make it up as they go--piece meal with each new episode adding detail as needed by story.

 

[Shawnster]

Did anyone ever read about Star Fleet Battles?

They really just took what FJTM started and ran with it, but there were lots of ship types, frigates, destroyers, light cruisers, heavy cruisers, and dreadnaughts. Plus support ships like tugs and police vessels. They have a nice variety and it's interesting to think about all of the various ships out there that wouldn't necessarily needed for the stories in episodic television that are there in the background. For example, I doubt anyone would ever need to have a tug ship on an episode, although it could have been possible, the Enterprise rescued one as one of the missions in the 25th anniversary computer game.

SFB is my personal canon for the TOS era fleet. While other fans in the 80s were reading "Best of Trek" and coming up with various histories (which later were all contradicted by TNG), I was playing Star Fleet Battles. Influenced by FJ's blueprints, SFB (which were interconnected) and, later, by FJ's Technical Manual, I can't seem to break away from their version of TOS backstory.

Well, except for the historical background. I'll accept what was on screen via dialog. Therefore, nor General War, etc...

 

[Timo]

For an attempt at a more "Trek-like" pseudohistory, one can always try FASA (which ties in to the old Spaceflight Chronology book). That RPG had more emphasis on stories, while inserting stories into SFB would have sucked all the fun out of the space battles... A brief scenario-introducing line like "Pursuit into asteroids" or "The moray eel of space" was plenty enough.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[PCz911]

Did anyone ever read about Star Fleet Battles?

They really just took what FJTM started and ran with it, but there were lots of ship types, frigates, destroyers, light cruisers, heavy cruisers, and dreadnaughts. Plus support ships like tugs and police vessels. They have a nice variety and it's interesting to think about all of the various ships out there that wouldn't necessarily needed for the stories in episodic television that are there in the background. For example, I doubt anyone would ever need to have a tug ship on an episode, although it could have been possible, the Enterprise rescued one as one of the missions in the 25th anniversary computer game.

SFB is my personal canon for the TOS era fleet. While other fans in the 80s were reading "Best of Trek" and coming up with various histories (which later were all contradicted by TNG), I was playing Star Fleet Battles. Influenced by FJ's blueprints, SFB (which were interconnected) and, later, by FJ's Technical Manual, I can't seem to break away from their version of TOS backstory.

Well, except for the historical background. I'll accept what was on screen via dialog. Therefore, nor General War, etc...

I agree with you. It's all about what did we grow up with. In the era before the Internet we had precious few resources. If it was published, it "must" be accurate....right? Fasa, fj, sfb.... They were all that was available.

 

[bolak]

* The Excelsior is the first ship of the class that bears its name (the term 'Excelsior class' has appeared on MANY dedication plaques).

You're right, I forgot about O'Brien's line about the Lakota which pegged it as Excelsior-Class

* The USS Galaxy, first ship of ITS class, appeared in some of the Dominion War battle scenes on DS9.

Interesting! That would be the first definite class-to-vessel tie-up I believe ( rather than vice versa ).

* USS'es Oberth and Constellation, first of their classes, appeared in onscreen graphics in ST VI. The latter ship was also mentioned on DS9 a few times.

If this is the list in question:

http://www.neutralzone.de/database/Federation/Other/USS_Ahwahnee03a.htm

I don't see any time-up with ship classes.Since the listed Constellation is NX it is unhelpful since we don't know anything more about it ( perhaps five nacelles and two saucers? Who knows... )


I'm aware that Mr Okuda might have wanted the names to tally to classes... but then he was operating under the conviction that's how Starfleet named their classes. Until Okuagrams came along I don't believe that was ever determined.

 

[Ithekro]

Considering that we know USS Stargazer and USS Hathaway were Constellation-class, and that Hathaway had been in service around the time of Star Trek II (mid-2280s), we can assume that USS Constellation is the class ship, just hasn't been changed over to a NCC like Excelsior has been prior to Star Trek VI (early 2290s).

 

[Shaw]

Honestly, the best way to approach this stuff is to take everything that fans put together since TOS and throw it all out. Start with raw data...

Seen-

Constellation (NCC-1017)
Defiant
Enterprise (NCC-1701)
Exeter
Excalibur
Lexington
Hood
Potemkin​

Not seen-

Carolina
Farragut
Intrepid
Republic (1371)
Valiant
Yorktown​

Older unseen-

Archon
Horizon
Valiant​

Stone Numbers-

NCC 1709
NCC 1631
NCC 1703
NCC 1672
NCC 1864
NCC 1697
NCC 1701
NCC 1718
NCC 1685
NCC 1700​

Diagram text-

PRIMARY PHASER L,R
STAR SHIP MK IX/01
CONSTITUTION CLASS

U.S.S. ENTERPRISE
STARSHIP CLASS
SAN FRANCISCO, CALIF.​

And what do we know about the models... four models were made (33 inch, 11 foot, 3 inch and 18 inch), all different from each other. The first model to be build that was a good approximation for the 11 foot model's physical features wasn't built until 1996 (by Greg Jein for the DS9 episode "Trials and Tribbleations"), and this wasn't due to a lack of efforts by model makers during the 30 years between 1966 and 1996. So the Constellation was the same type/class starship as the Enterprise because that was the intent AND no model replicating the 11 foot model was built in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s or the first half of the 1990s.

For me, I look at it this way... we had eight ships seen (Constellation, Defiant, Enterprise, Exeter, Excalibur, Lexington, Hood, and Potemkin) and three known active from dialog (Carolina, Intrepid, and Yorktown). We know the Valiant was lost, and the Farragut and Republic were at least active in recent history. And of all of those only three had assigned numbers... Constellation (NCC-1017), Enterprise (NCC-1701) and Republic (1371, the "NCC" has always been assumed).

Keep in mind guys... Okuda, Jein and Drexler have no more connection to TOS than you guys. THEY ARE JUST FANS! Not one of them worked on TOS, so they really have no better information (or ideas) than the rest of us. And they make mistakes.


And why is this the first post in this thread to acknowledge the existence of the USS Carolina?

 

[Push The Button]

Honestly, the best way to approach this stuff is to take everything that fans put together since TOS and throw it all out. Start with raw data...

Seen-

Constellation (NCC-1017)
Defiant
Enterprise (NCC-1701)
Exeter
Excalibur
Lexington
Hood
Potemkin​

Not seen-

Carolina
Farragut
Intrepid
Republic (1371)
Valiant
Yorktown​

Older unseen-

Archon
Horizon
Valiant​

Stone Numbers-

NCC 1709
NCC 1631
NCC 1703
NCC 1672
NCC 1864
NCC 1697
NCC 1701
NCC 1718
NCC 1685
NCC 1700​

Diagram text-

PRIMARY PHASER L,R
STAR SHIP MK IX/01
CONSTITUTION CLASS

U.S.S. ENTERPRISE
STARSHIP CLASS
SAN FRANCISCO, CALIF.​

And what do we know about the models... four models were made (33 inch, 11 foot, 3 inch and 18 inch), all different from each other. The first model to be build that was a good approximation for the 11 foot model's physical features wasn't built until 1996 (by Greg Jein for the DS9 episode "Trials and Tribbleations"), and this wasn't due to a lack of efforts by model makers during the 30 years between 1966 and 1996. So the Constellation was the same type/class starship as the Enterprise because that was the intent AND no model replicating the 11 foot model was built in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s or the first half of the 1990s.

For me, I look at it this way... we had eight ships seen (Constellation, Defiant, Enterprise, Exeter, Excalibur, Lexington, Hood, and Potemkin) and three known active from dialog (Carolina, Intrepid, and Yorktown). We know the Valiant was lost, and the Farragut and Republic were at least active in recent history. And of all of those only three had assigned numbers... Constellation (NCC-1017), Enterprise (NCC-1701) and Republic (1371, the "NCC" has always been assumed).

Keep in mind guys... Okuda, Jein and Drexler have no more connection to TOS than you guys. THEY ARE JUST FANS! Not one of them worked on TOS, so they really have no better information (or ideas) than the rest of us. And they make mistakes.


And why is this the first post in this thread to acknowledge the existence of the USS Carolina?

Logical. Flawlessly logical.

 

[CrazyMatt]

The main friction point is "Starship Class" vs. "Constitution Class." Of course, these problems creep up when you have (US Army) Air Force* guys (GR & Jeffries) trying to come up with Navy-themed conventions. And now we have this conundrum that can never be solved, try as we might.

This disconnect became apparent when I first saw TWOK with my cousin, who was a bigger ST fan than even I was. When Chekov started dictating the Reliant log and identified that ship as a starship, my cousin actually said out loud in the theater, "That's not a Starship!!!"

*Before you give me a hard time, know that I served in the USAF for many years.