Order of Battle...

[mic of orion]

In the Dominion war was it ever established just how many Starships the Federation had, and how many of each class were available at the height of the conflict. The same question applies for the Klingons, Romulans, Cardissians, Breen and the Jem-Hadar...

Resistance is Futile

federation has about 10 fleets, each fleet having around 300-320 warships.

As to ship classes, wow, hard to guess.

I am guessing here,

300-320 Galaxy Class
250-300 Akira Class
30-50 Defiant class
200-300 Intrepid Class (Voyager)
200-400 Ambassador Class
200-400 Excelsior Class

and many other classes

 

[Sisko4Life]

Don't think thats accurate. It is suggested on screen many times that many of those 300 ships are Peregrine fighters... probably about 1/2. It is also said to be less than 10 Galaxy Class ships ever constructed, meaning at the height of mobilization there couldn't have been that many Galaxies around. Most of the cruiser-ships in the fleet were Miranda and Excelsior class, since they were of the oldest design. Akiras, Defiants, Nebulas, and Galaxies were the "battleships" if you will, and weren't as abundant in the fleet at that time.

Oh yeah, weren't Klingon ships included in some of the fleets? In "A Time to Stand," Martok describes the seventh fleet "14... out of a 112!!!" We also see Federation and Klingon ships flying side by side in formation in the first scene of that episode and the last scene of "Call to Arms"

 

[mic of orion]

Don't think thats accurate. It is suggested on screen many times that many of those 300 ships are Peregrine fighters... probably about 1/2. It is also said to be less than 10 Galaxy Class ships ever constructed, meaning at the height of mobilization there couldn't have been that many Galaxies around. Most of the cruiser-ships in the fleet were Miranda and Excelsior class, since they were of the oldest design. Akiras, Defiants, Nebulas, and Galaxies were the "battleships" if you will, and weren't as abundant in the fleet at that time.

Oh yeah, weren't Klingon ships included in some of the fleets? In "A Time to Stand," Martok describes the seventh fleet "14... out of a 112!!!" We also see Federation and Klingon ships flying side by side in formation in the first scene of that episode and the last scene of "Call to Arms"

Loads of galaxy class ships were built, you can hear Sisko ordering Galaxy wings to punch a hole in the Cardasian lines, which they do quite efficiently, and open hole for other ships to punch through, than out of nowhere Klingons attack and finish off the Cardasian/Dominion fleet, Call to arms episode...

 

[Jono]

Don't think thats accurate. It is suggested on screen many times that many of those 300 ships are Peregrine fighters... probably about 1/2. It is also said to be less than 10 Galaxy Class ships ever constructed, meaning at the height of mobilization there couldn't have been that many Galaxies around. Most of the cruiser-ships in the fleet were Miranda and Excelsior class, since they were of the oldest design. Akiras, Defiants, Nebulas, and Galaxies were the "battleships" if you will, and weren't as abundant in the fleet at that time.

Oh yeah, weren't Klingon ships included in some of the fleets? In "A Time to Stand," Martok describes the seventh fleet "14... out of a 112!!!" We also see Federation and Klingon ships flying side by side in formation in the first scene of that episode and the last scene of "Call to Arms"

Martok was made supreme commander of the Ninth Fleet, which suggests it was a combined fleet. The Fifth and Second didn't appear to be combined fleets and we didn't hear anything definitive on the Seventh, Tenth or Sixth. We did hear that the Third requested a wing or two of Romulan Warbirds, but that might have been just for a particular operation and not assigned for a extended length of time.

Loads of galaxy class ships were built, you can hear Sisko ordering Galaxy wings to punch a hole in the Cardasian lines, which they do quite efficiently, and open hole for other ships to punch through, than out of nowhere Klingons attack and finish off the Cardasian/Dominion fleet, Call to arms episode...

I really doubt 300 were built. We know that there were at least two Galaxy wings, which seemed to have only two to three ships. The Galaxy ships didn't punch a hole, the attack fighters "created" the hole when Dukat ordered several squadrons to pursue them.

The battle lasted three more hours after the Klingons arrived.

 

[Cyke101]

Don't think thats accurate. It is suggested on screen many times that many of those 300 ships are Peregrine fighters... probably about 1/2. It is also said to be less than 10 Galaxy Class ships ever constructed, meaning at the height of mobilization there couldn't have been that many Galaxies around. Most of the cruiser-ships in the fleet were Miranda and Excelsior class, since they were of the oldest design. Akiras, Defiants, Nebulas, and Galaxies were the "battleships" if you will, and weren't as abundant in the fleet at that time.

I sincerely doubt that half those ships were all fighters. There's just simply no way Starfleet could have survived that battle if such a large percentage of the fleet were fighters.

Also: where has it been said that 10 Galaxies were ever constructed? Between Favor the Bold and Endgame alone, we already see 10 Galaxies, nevermind all the other named Galaxies we see in other DS9 and Voyager episodes (and the three named Galaxies that had already been destroyed by the time of Endgame. Add those three to "FTB" and Endgame and that already brings us to at least 13!).

 

[Jono]

^ I think it was somewhere like the TNG Technical Manual that six were built up to whenever that was set with another 3 or 6 hulls in reserve.

 

[jamestyler]

I would imagine, if they were building ships, that they would create more Nova and Defiant classes, among others, as they were smaller, more maneuverable and quicker to build.

I'd put that forth a an argument for the small fighter types too. They're not a easy to hit and didn't look much smaller than the bulk of the Dominion ships.

 

[Marie1]

What was that ship in VOY that could split in 3? The Fed one? And of the 3 ships they sent after it, 2 were Defiant class, I think.

 

[Jono]

^ The Prometheus

 

[Cyke101]

^ I think it was somewhere like the TNG Technical Manual that six were built up to whenever that was set with another 3 or 6 hulls in reserve.

Yes, but that thing was made so long ago. On screen (which counts more than any book), we see more than twelve Galaxies. If each unnamed Galaxy class we see is a separate ship (say, in fleet movements or, again, in Endgame), and then count those towards the Galaxies that are indeed named, we're looking at over two dozen vessels. For that matter, wartime could mean speeding up production on Galaxies anyway.

Considering the hundreds of ships that comprise a fleet and then how many fleets there could be, and just how vast Federation space is even in peacetime, and there could very well be more than two dozen Galaxy-class ships.

(but probably not 300 Galaxies)

 

[Marie1]

^ The Prometheus

Ah yes! Thanks! I'm not sure how practical that would be in practice... but maybe... and I guess you trick the Dominion into thinking you have 600 ships to their 1200 when you have 1800... wait... I don't like that... poor Jem'Hadar!

 

[GabeHimself]

The Founder's order to exterminate all Cardassians killed 900 million ONLY on Cardassia Prime. The communications were knocked out immediately after that order so it only would have been enacted on Cardassia itself.

 

[Marie1]

Not necessarily- if she gave the order- have all the Cardassians exterminated, and it went out, I'm not sure that means that the message only made it to Cardassia Prime. If it had, then Cardassian wouldn't be in such a big mess, it would only need to pull a few more resources from each planet. A lot of death nevertheless, but it wouldn't be as big of an issue, I wouldn't think.

 

[warriorsfan]

I think 8000 to 10,000 ships for the Federations sounds about right. But I would imagine that perhaps only 3000 or less would be "capital" ships like Galaxy-class, Nebula-class, Mirandas, Excelsiors, Defiants, etc. The rest wold likely be cargo ships, transports, runabouts, Federation fighters, etc.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

In the Dominion war was it ever established just how many Starships the Federation had, and how many of each class were available at the height of the conflict. The same question applies for the Klingons, Romulans, Cardissians, Breen and the Jem-Hadar...

Resistance is Futile

federation has about 10 fleets, each fleet having around 300-320 warships.

As to ship classes, wow, hard to guess.

I am guessing here,

300-320 Galaxy Class
250-300 Akira Class
30-50 Defiant class
200-300 Intrepid Class (Voyager)
200-400 Ambassador Class
200-400 Excelsior Class

and many other classes

I would doubt this very much. My own thinking was more along the lines of (in a single fleet)

3 to 5 Galaxy class (possibly with a Sovereign or two)
5 to 10 Akira class
1 to ?? Defiant class (we only ever saw the actual Defiant flying aroun, but I would bet its small size toughness and agility made it a preferred deep-penetration scout and recon ship)
1 to 5 Intrepid class (Admiral Ross used one as his flagship so who knows?)
5 to 10 Steamrunner class (I hate this design more than words can say)
5 to 10 Norway class (I hate this design even more)
5 to 10 Ambassador class
10 to 20 Excelsior class
10 to 20 Constellation class
20 to 30 Miranda class
50 to 100 Fighters

Now of course it gets tricky, because in some fleets you would substitute some of the Ambassadors for New Orleans or Nebulas, Whatever class ship, some of the Excelsiors for Centaurs, some of the Mirandas for Constitutions or Oberths or even extra Constellations, and so on and so forth. In all every fleet size will be between 115 and 200 ships, about half of which are fighters. Naturally, as the war got more and more desperate you'd see more and more fighters, more and more older designs being pulled out of places like Qualor-II with crews of a dozen or more, run mostly by automation.

In any case, the 7th fleet lost 98 ships in a single engagement; Bashir doesn't tell them exactly which ships made it back, but considering nobody seems to care which ships made it back (were they the fourteen biggest ships in the fleet or two Mirandas with skeleton crews and a handful of fighters?) it doesn't seem to matter, because the effect is that the fleet is basically massacred and whatever's left is just a remnant anyway. So if you assume all ten or twelve Starfleet battle groups have full ranks at the start of the war, we're talking--at maximum--two thousand capital ships and probably a huge number of fighters and runabouts. And even in this case, prevalence of fighters is probably a reaction to the Jem'Hadar bug ships that themselves aren't much bigger than Maquis raiders.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Don't think thats accurate. It is suggested on screen many times that many of those 300 ships are Peregrine fighters... probably about 1/2. It is also said to be less than 10 Galaxy Class ships ever constructed, meaning at the height of mobilization there couldn't have been that many Galaxies around. Most of the cruiser-ships in the fleet were Miranda and Excelsior class, since they were of the oldest design. Akiras, Defiants, Nebulas, and Galaxies were the "battleships" if you will, and weren't as abundant in the fleet at that time.

I sincerely doubt that half those ships were all fighters. There's just simply no way Starfleet could have survived that battle if such a large percentage of the fleet were fighters.

Why? ALL of the Jem'Hadar ships at the Omarian Nebula were fighters. I've always believed this fiasco was a kind of Pearl Harbor like scenario where all of the major powers realized that the Dominion used a lot of small fast, basically expendable gunboat-type vessels to make diving/strafing attacks on enemy capital ships and adjusted their fleet doctrines accordingly. The Cardassians built up bigger numbers of Hidekis, the Klingons already had freaking huge numbers of BoPs lying around, and Starfleet (in keeping with their general distaste for designing new things instead of modifying old things) already had runabouts and some Maquis engineers who knew how to attach really big weapons to really small ships.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Not necessarily- if she gave the order- have all the Cardassians exterminated, and it went out, I'm not sure that means that the message only made it to Cardassia Prime. If it had, then Cardassian wouldn't be in such a big mess, it would only need to pull a few more resources from each planet. A lot of death nevertheless, but it wouldn't be as big of an issue, I wouldn't think.

Yeah, the fleet could've easily relayed the message. I'm sure they had access to communications relays off of Cardassia Prime, not to mention the power of their own fleet.

On the subject of the "Galaxy wings," those wings could easily have been led by a Galaxy, but otherwise had smaller ships under them.

 

[2 of 10]

WOW, going through all the posts was like reading a Star Trek Book, complete with maps and pictures. You guys ROCK...and so does this SITE...LLAP

Resistance is Futile

 

[Cyke101]

Don't think thats accurate. It is suggested on screen many times that many of those 300 ships are Peregrine fighters... probably about 1/2. It is also said to be less than 10 Galaxy Class ships ever constructed, meaning at the height of mobilization there couldn't have been that many Galaxies around. Most of the cruiser-ships in the fleet were Miranda and Excelsior class, since they were of the oldest design. Akiras, Defiants, Nebulas, and Galaxies were the "battleships" if you will, and weren't as abundant in the fleet at that time.

I sincerely doubt that half those ships were all fighters. There's just simply no way Starfleet could have survived that battle if such a large percentage of the fleet were fighters.

Why? ALL of the Jem'Hadar ships at the Omarian Nebula were fighters. I've always believed this fiasco was a kind of Pearl Harbor like scenario where all of the major powers realized that the Dominion used a lot of small fast, basically expendable gunboat-type vessels to make diving/strafing attacks on enemy capital ships and adjusted their fleet doctrines accordingly. The Cardassians built up bigger numbers of Hidekis, the Klingons already had freaking huge numbers of BoPs lying around, and Starfleet (in keeping with their general distaste for designing new things instead of modifying old things) already had runabouts and some Maquis engineers who knew how to attach really big weapons to really small ships.

Simply because Jem Ha'Dar fighters and Klingon Birds of Prey are SEVERAL times bigger with tons more firepower than Federation fighters, that's why. Because several Federation fighters can fit within the cargo bay of a mere Miranda class starship, that's why.

A Jem'Hadar fighter is about the size of a Miranda class starship, as is a Klingon Bird of Prey. A Federation fighter, however, is about the size of a runabout. That's why there are squadrons of them. But really, for any Starfleet vessel to withstand the sort of pounding a Jem Hadar fighter can dish out, that vessel itself would have to be much more considerable than a runabout. Starfleet has vessels that can match or come close to the Birds of Prey and Hidekis and Jem'Hadar fighters in terms of speed, power, and maneuverability and thus fulfill the same purpose: the Mirandas, the Sabres, and others. But each one of those ships is much, much more powerful than a standard Federation fighter, and each one of those classes is considered a full-fledged starship, not an itty bitty fighter.

You're basically talking about a traditionally-sized fighter vs. a fighter-in-name-only-and-is-really-the-size-and-strength-of-a-capital-ship. And that's why I doubt that 300 of Starfleet's 600 ships were fighters. There's simply no way Starfleet could have lasted that long if it were *really* 300 capital ships vs. 1200 capital ships. Even the mighty Galaxy class would've been chopped to bits in no time.

And to clarify, THIS is a Federation fighter. This isn't the Sabre or the Miranda or the Defiant, all three of which are far more powerful, durable, and larger than the fighter:

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Federation_attack_fighter

As for those Maquis engineers who equipped big guns onto small shuttles, let's keep in mind that it still took a squadron to take down a Cardassian vessel in TNG, and perhaps similar numbers to handle Excelsior-sized vessels in DS9. If Starfleet had 300 fighters in Sacrifice of Angels, that only comes to matching only a small fraction of Dominion/Cardassian vessels.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Simply because Jem Ha'Dar fighters and Klingon Birds of Prey are SEVERAL times bigger with tons more firepower than Federation fighters, that's why.

How much power do you need to launch a photon torpedo? (which the Dominion and arguably the Klingons do not use?)

Because several Federation fighters can fit within the cargo bay of a mere Miranda class starship, that's why.

Why would you want to stick a large warp-capable space craft into the cargo bay of another large warp capable space craft? The whole reason for using fighters in the first place is to add more firepower to the fleet without actually adding more capital ships.

A Jem'Hadar fighter is about the size of a Miranda class starship...

No, a Jem'hadar fighter is about seventy meters long, roughly the size of a Maquis raider. It is significantly smaller than the Klingon Bird of Prey and only slightly larger than the Cardassian Hideki class (which also gets pressed into massive service as a fighter, probably for the same reason).

A Federation fighter, however, is about the size of a runabout.

Runabouts? You mean those things that have enough power to destroy unshielded Jem'hadar fighters?

And that's why I doubt that 300 of Starfleet's 600 ships were fighters.

Right, because you're under the impression that a fleet of space craft about to engage in battle would actually LAUNCH those fighters like 20th century aircraft carriers instead of simply having those fighters fly alongside the entire way to and from the operation zone like PT boats or missile corvettes.

If I'm the commander of a wet navy that's about to deploy sixty cruisers and destroyers (with three or four battleships) against a vastly superior enemy, I don't think I'll be quick to dismiss the fifty to a hundred Pegasus class hydrofoils sitting on the flanks as being somehow irrelevant. Each ship has a good-sized gun and eight screaming-hot missiles to add to the gamble. I might even say something on the radio like "Attack group, fire your Harpoon missiles at the enemy's guided missile escorts, harass them with concentrated fire from your deck guns, then split up into squadrons and run like hell."

There's simply no way Starfleet could have lasted that long if it were *really* 300 capital ships vs. 1200 capital ships.

It wasn't. It was about 300 capital ships and hundreds of fighters vs. 600 capital ships and hundreds of more fighters. The Cardassian Hidekis are also considered "fighters" much as Starfleet runabouts and Peregrine couriers.

As for those Maquis engineers who equipped big guns onto small shuttles, let's keep in mind that it still took a squadron to take down a Cardassian vessel in TNG, and perhaps similar numbers to handle Excelsior-sized vessels in DS9.

Like how it took four Jem'hadar fighters just to damage an unprepared and unshielded Galaxy class before one of them went Kamikaze?

If you're trying to make the case that small Maquis ships have similar tactical capabilities as Jem'hadar battlebugs, your point is well made.

If Starfleet had 300 fighters in Sacrifice of Angels, that only comes to matching only a small fraction of Dominion/Cardassian vessels.

Considering the Dominion vessels ALSO consisted mostly of fighters, that fraction would appear to be roughly "one half."