Orci talks about Star Trek 3
- Thread starter Enterprise is Great
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If we suppose that Marcus didn't mastermind the Kelvin and Daystrom killings, or frame Khan for them, anyway … just to play Timo for a moment.
For me, the most interesting parts of the movie was the stretch where Khan was playing Kirk, where they were teamed up and where it looked like Khan might actually be taking the least immoral course available to him.
Making Khan (appear to) act with conscience in circumstances that don't allow much is a neat bit of drama, and it makes for the audience a great character study since we'd get to see him in three extreme circumstances between the Original Timeline and the New Timeline, and … well, the best part of the movie was the part that teased us with Khan being the if-not-good, then at least the relatively-good guy.
I was disappointed when we started getting the heavy Wrath of Khan callbacks; the movie was doing so very well being its own thing up to that point.
Kirk turned on him first.
Do you mean Meyers'? (Nimoy directed TSFS and TVH.)
Nimoy's acting choices. Though I suppose Meyer's direction plays into it as well.
OK, we're way off topic, here, but I'll ask why. Personally, I always thought Spock seemed restrained and distant throughout the movie, even for him. Uncomfortable, even. And when you think about it, up until his death scene, there really wasn't a lot for him to do in the movie.
The jacket straightening and bump into the wall seemed very "actorly" and took me out of the moment.
^ Huh. That's one I haven't heard before. I thought that moment sold the character's remnant dignity and self-control (and current ravaged radiation-blindness) quite beautifully and poignantly. Pretty close to being Nimoy's finest fifteen(?) seconds on screen in any role.
I think I can see what Nerys Myk is getting at. It could be seen as a stereotypical or utterly formulaic portrayal of retaining dignity. It works for me, especially topped off by his leaving green goo from his nose on the glass. However, I don't believe criticism of that part along those lines to be out of left field or anything.
I may very well be alone in my opinion. Though I have voiced it here from time to time.
I will agree that Spock bumping blindly into the transparent wall outside the mains room was a nice touch....Spock retaining his dignity despite his highly distressed state. (It's not too far removed from when he was blinded in "Operation: Annihilate" (I believe that was the episode). Spock tried to retain his functionality and dignity in that episode, despite his new (albeit, unbeknownst to him, but beknownst to us, a very temporary) handicap.
Yeah, it's fair to draw a parallel with that scene in "Operation: Annihilate".
I agree with this statement
Personally, I know that this film does not hit everyone in the same way, but I found ID to be a very deep, interesting movie, both in a social commentary stance as well as the characters and their personal arcs.
Personally, I don't have a problem with Khan, though I think the film would have been stronger if they had stuck with Harrison, and Marcus was trying to create genetically engineered soldiers, a la Khan. But, that might have been too much ethical dilema in the film. The death by remote torpedo and breaking the rules and avoiding consequences was great.
It certainly could have done more, but it was not lacking for depth.
Of course its very in-character for Spock.
That scene is the very best of Trek in movies - EVER.
Especially the coat tug.
I've said on here that when I saw the movie, there were some chuckles in the theater when Spock did that. I can see what some are saying about Spock trying to maintain his dignity, but more often than not, Spock's fastidiousness was played for humor, so it did seem to be a bit out of place to me. Guess it's the "Khan!" moment for some of us in that death scene.
Of course its very in-character for Spock.
That scene is the very best of Trek in movies - EVER.
Especially the coat tug.
So, shouldn't it be called "The Spock Maneuver" instead of "The Picard Maneuver"?
I have no qualms with the WoK death scene itself, but I've always found the set-up somewhat contrived. The way Spock just suddenly leaves the bridge to fix the pipe thing(?) in engineering makes little sense. There is a whole engine room full of people in full radiation suits who could have dealt with it - yet unprotected Spock is the guy to go inside? And he didn't even put on a helmet?
In ID, Kirk and Scotty spend the prior 15 minutes fighting their way through the falling ship with the express purpose of fixing the engine, and the film foreshadows Kirk's sacrifice when Khan asks him how far he would go to protect his family. It flows much more smoothly - the only contrivance coming from foreknowledge of it's parallel in WoK.
(also amusing to me is that both the pipe thing in WoK and the NIF warp core in ID only appear when someone has to sacrifice themselves inside!)
In ID, Kirk and Scotty spend the prior 15 minutes fighting their way through the falling ship with the express purpose of fixing the engine, and the film foreshadows Kirk's sacrifice when Khan asks him how far he would go to protect his family. It flows much more smoothly - the only contrivance coming from foreknowledge of it's parallel in WoK.
(also amusing to me is that both the pipe thing in WoK and the NIF warp core in ID only appear when someone has to sacrifice themselves inside!)
Haven't Vulcans been shown to have exceptionally high tolerance for radiation?
I think it was a combination of the Vulcan radiation tolerance, a knowledge of engineering that surpassed any of the engineering crew except perhaps Scotty (In TMP, Spock was the one who helped Scotty get the warp drive balanced properly), that most of the engineering staff were Academy cadet trainees, the fact that Scotty and perhaps many other engineering personnel were incapacitated by the earlier release of radiation that prompted him to "take the mains offline," that even more engineering crew had been killed in Khan's attacks (let's just say engineering was in a bad way), and that Spock was the only one who had a means of allowing his consciousness to live on even if his body could not.
Since Scotty was unconscious at the time, would an inexperienced junior officer or enlisted trainee even conceive of manipulating the dilithium crystals(? - I assume that's what was in the pedestal, but I'm not sure) manually to get the mains back online again? Spock's solution may have been a novel one which he came up with on the fly as he had done countless times before.
Spock had also served as the Captain for these cadets and may have felt it was his responsibility to take the extra risk to save the ship rather than sacrificing one of his students (I got the impression that the radiation was overwhelming even the personnel in rad suits outside the chamber, albeit without helmets on, which lessens the protection obviously).
They showed the chamber and the pedestal in TWoK earlier in the film before the shit hit the fan. I think they showed someone in a rad suit inside the chamber.
Of course its very in-character for Spock.
That scene is the very best of Trek in movies - EVER.
Especially the coat tug.
So, shouldn't it be called "The Spock Maneuver" instead of "The Picard Maneuver"?
Of course it should. :Shakes fist at Berman: Stealing TOS's thunder.
In TWOK the ship is full of trainees. Due for a training run. Not to go into battle. There's no-one else but Scotty there who knows anything and he wasn't answering the comm. From his science station Spock must have realised what had happened. And up to 3 days prior Spock was in charge of the ship and would know the personnel situation.
And I got the impression that Scotty had already tried to fix the Warp Core suited up but the radiation had stopped him. I think that Spock simply didn't have the time to get suited up. They barely had seconds to spare as it was.
As for STID, if Kirk had failed then everyone could have lived - escaping in life-pods. If Sulu hadn't decided for the rest of the crew not to go that way.
'Only' the Enterprise would have been destroyed. So Kirk didn't 'need' to sacrifice himself in STID.
Spock in TWOK did as escaping in lifepods or shuttles wasn't an option.
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