Orci strikes back

[Jeyl]

That would be a valid point (well, not really, since STiD's based on TOS anyway, so it's not a fair comparison to bring up in the first place)

You're right. The writers just came up with the idea of a top secret Starfleet organization known as Section 31 all on their own and not from any other Star Trek series. You think they also came up with the idea of Klingons having ridged foreheads, having a strong sense of honor and carry bat'leths?

 

[JarodRussell]

By bringing back TOS, they brought back the 60s role models, miniskirts and racial issues. Modern Trek had already developed far beyond that, with a black and female Captain. Next step should have been a homosexual character, for example. Spock and Uhura kissing a controversy? How about the male communications officer kissing and comforting the male first officer? That's the controversy Trek should be aiming for.

 

[Jeyl]

By bringing back TOS, they brought back the 60s role models, miniskirts and racial issues. Modern Trek had already developed far beyond that, with a black and female Captain. Next step should have been homosexuals, for example.

Thank you.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

That would be a valid point (well, not really, since STiD's based on TOS anyway, so it's not a fair comparison to bring up in the first place)

You're right. The writers just came up with the idea of a top secret Starfleet organization known as Section 31 all on their own and not from any other Star Trek series. You think they also came up with the idea of Klingons having ridged foreheads, having a strong sense of honor and carry bat'leths?

When you're ready to have an honest discussion with me on the points I was actually addressing and not a strawman argument with your imaginary friend, here's my original post:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=8635408&postcount=345

You'll notice there's no discussion of Section 31, Klingons, Deep Space Nine or anything else you've decided to annoyingly inject into this conversation for some reason. There was a disagreement with the author of the article that said:

"Fans would have loved to have heard an honest explanation for why Khan was in the movie at all, or why the Enterprise was so much whiter and more male than it's ever been before (although there were some weird aliens so maybe that helps?)"

I also wasn't discussing the interchangeability of Quinto and Cumberbatch as Spock, how Orci feels about race/gender bending, or anything else people have bizarrely tried to argue with me about in response to that post even though I didn't bring those things up. Maybe next time we can discuss the impact of Barney the Purple Dinosaur on Star Trek too, since that's about as relevant to what I said as any of these other things. You want to talk about those things, that's fine, start a discussion. Just don't pretend that it's representative of or a rebuttal to anything that I was saying, because it's not.

 

[Jeyl]

When you're ready to have an honest discussion

I thought I was. You said,

"I was disagreeing with the premise in the article that STiD is "much whiter and more male" than any Trek has been in the past."

So "ANY TREK" doesn't mean any trek? Because by definition, any trek can be any trek, like Deep Space Nine, Voyager, Enterprise, the Animated Series, The Next Generation and even the movies. If you were just talking about in context of TOS, why didn't you just say so?

I also think it's odd how you dismiss my Deep Space Nine point on the grounds that STID is based on TOS, even though Section 31, a top secret Starfleet Organization is something that was created for Deep Space Nine. So I would say that dismissing elements from other Star Trek series only on the grounds that STID is based on TOS is disingenuous.

 

[BillJ]

Why the emphasis on the "full blooded" alien detail? Well, when the only named alien crew member is only half-alien and half-human and your story spends a lot of time with characters saying how much they hate his alien half and how he should be more human,

Since they were making a movie based on the TOS characters, I'm not sure it is a fair comparison.

But then, you have a black comm officer, Asian helmsman, Russian navigator, a Vulcan-Human science officer and a Scottish chief engineer. Then you had two Americans, Kirk and McCoy. Plus, you had a female first officer in the original pilot. Not sure any of the other series were any better at diversity than TOS.

I think we could use a little bit more alien diversity that doesn't resort to "Aliens are wrong, humanity is right!".

In Modern Trek, humanity was always right. Out spreading the gospel of how much more evolved they were when compared to everyone else.

 

[Sindatur]

When you're ready to have an honest discussion

I thought I was. You said,

"I was disagreeing with the premise in the article that STiD is "much whiter and more male" than any Trek has been in the past."

So "ANY TREK" doesn't mean any trek? Because by definition, any trek can be any trek, like Deep Space Nine, Voyager, Enterprise, the Animated Series, The Next Generation and even the movies. If you were just talking about in context of TOS, why didn't you just say so?

I also think it's odd how you dismiss my Deep Space Nine point on the grounds that STID is based on TOS, even though Section 31, a top secret Starfleet Organization is something that was created for Deep Space Nine. So I would say that dismissing elements from other Star Trek series only on the grounds that STID is based on TOS is disingenuous.

You're reading that backwards. in order to prove the accuracy of "Whiter than any Trek before", you have to show all Trek before was less white.

 

[Jeyl]

You're reading that backwards. in order to prove the accuracy of "Whiter than any Trek before", you have to show all Trek before was less white.

Well, that wasn't too hard to understand. :P

 

[Set Harth]

I love it when the fan base say they want something new then scream bloody murder at the slightest change in the status-quo.

Apples and oranges, really. Wanting something new arguably translates to wanting original adventures, not just rehashing things we've seen before, etc. I would assume that changing the races of canon characters is not what people are really looking for if they say they "want something new". Especially given the great pains taken four years ago to assert that the Abramsverse branches from the Prime timeline in 2233 and isn't just an "anything goes" reboot. If fans say they want something new, but they get a remix of Trek's greatest hits except now Khan is a white Brit, oh and here's yet another big bad villain ship, some dissatisfaction is understandable.

 

[M'Sharak]

When you're ready to have an honest discussion

I thought I was. You said,

"I was disagreeing with the premise in the article that STiD is "much whiter and more male" than any Trek has been in the past."

So "ANY TREK" doesn't mean any trek? Because by definition, any trek can be any trek, like Deep Space Nine, Voyager, Enterprise, the Animated Series, The Next Generation and even the movies. If you were just talking about in context of TOS, why didn't you just say so?

I also think it's odd how you dismiss my Deep Space Nine point on the grounds that STID is based on TOS, even though Section 31, a top secret Starfleet Organization is something that was created for Deep Space Nine. So I would say that dismissing elements from other Star Trek series only on the grounds that STID is based on TOS is disingenuous.

If you would cease your relentless shifting of goalposts for one moment and refer to the article which Locutus was addressing in this post, you'll see that Locutus misspoke. Rather than the "whiter and more male than any Trek" to which you've latched on, the article's writer in fact stated:

Fans would have loved to have heard an explanation for... why the Enterprise was so much whiter and more male than it's ever been before (although there were some weird aliens so maybe that helps?)

The Enterprise, not Trek taken as a whole. That's what's in the article, and it was to that that Locutus was referring in his original post in this chain.

Speak to that subject, if you will, rather than keying off a cherry-pick in order to climb up on your soapbox and deliver the same harangues you've already voiced many times before.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

When you're ready to have an honest discussion

I thought I was. You said,

"I was disagreeing with the premise in the article that STiD is "much whiter and more male" than any Trek has been in the past."

So "ANY TREK" doesn't mean any trek? Because by definition, any trek can be any trek, like Deep Space Nine, Voyager, Enterprise, the Animated Series, The Next Generation and even the movies. If you were just talking about in context of TOS, why didn't you just say so?

I also think it's odd how you dismiss my Deep Space Nine point on the grounds that STID is based on TOS, even though Section 31, a top secret Starfleet Organization is something that was created for Deep Space Nine. So I would say that dismissing elements from other Star Trek series only on the grounds that STID is based on TOS is disingenuous.

 

[Jeyl]

Now THAT is a threat a trekkie like me can understand. Though if you imply that I smoke crack, I won't be happy.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Oh, it's not hypocritical for me to be more polite on the internet, it's because lack of tone of voice and expression, things can often be misunderstood on the internet.

... a myriad of other expressions denoting a lack of intelligence, ...

You're right. One would be hard-pressed to misunderstand your above point. How very polite.

 

[Sindatur]

You're reading that backwards. in order to prove the accuracy of "Whiter than any Trek before", you have to show all Trek before was less white.

Well, that wasn't too hard to understand. :P

No, it wasn't. Which is why it's so mystifying you appeared to be disputing LocutusOfBored's statement that it was a false statement, by, pointing at just DS9 being less "white" then STiD

 

[SeerSGB]

^^^
I find the first four letters of that guy's last name an appropriate way to describe him.

Orci couldn't win if he tried--not with the haters. He could have been a sweet as southern tea them and he'd still been called a bastard for it.

Oh, it's not hypocritical for me to be more polite on the internet, it's because lack of tone of voice and expression, things can often be misunderstood on the internet.

Yea, I realize many folks use foul language in real life, but, I'm willing to bet, a great many of the crassest, most insulting people on the internet, wouldn't have the guts to act like that in front of the person they are insulting (IE: People who sit there talking smack in real life behind someone's back and don't have a word to say when faced with that person)

Regarding Khan's Canon Skin tone, yea, I think Cumberbatch was a bit too darkly complected compared to TWoK Khan's skin tone

Nope, never talk smack behind anyone's back. More fun to tell them to their face.

 

[M'Sharak]

Oh, it's not hypocritical for me to be more polite on the internet, it's because lack of tone of voice and expression, things can often be misunderstood on the internet.

... a myriad of other expressions denoting a lack of intelligence, ...

You're right. One would be hard-pressed to misunderstand your above point. How very polite.

Warning for trolling. Comments to PM.

 

[JarodRussell]

And again, I thought the consensus was that the haters are in the minority and that it doesn't matter what they think.

 

[BillJ]

And again, I thought the consensus was that the haters are in the minority and that it doesn't matter what they think.

But they're still making Star Trek. In one of the special features Abrams says they could have changed a great deal, but then they wouldn't be making Star Trek.

 

[SeerSGB]

And again, I thought the consensus was that the haters are in the minority and that it doesn't matter what they think.

But they're still making Star Trek. In one of the special features Abrams says they could have changed a great deal, but then they wouldn't be making Star Trek.

There in lays the problem: "We want something original and new!...you bastards, you changed Star Trek! Ruined forever! Canon Violation! Canon Violation!"

Imagine the shitstorm had they made Kirk or Spock a woman. Changed Kirk's race, made him black or middle eastern. Or went the Dragnet route and made the crew the laughing stock of the Starfleet.

The reboots are probably the truest "sequels" to TOS in terms of tone, pacing, and even story that any of the movies has been. The new movies are a respectful retelling of Star Trek. Not the Star Trek Franchise, but the series Star Trek--TNG and latter day Rodemberry revisionism on what "Star Trek Is..." need not apply.

 

[Commishsleer]

Imagine the shitstorm had they made Kirk or Spock a woman. Changed Kirk's race, made him black or middle eastern.

Personally I would have liked that but I realise that Star Trek TOS is so iconic that you really can't fool around with the characters for the majority of casual and hard-core fans. Its a shame.

If VOY hadn't had a female captain then I think it would have been a bold correct move to make Kirk female but the female captains been done, so has the female first officer. I am not saying there's not room for more female charcters in important positions but not at the expense of the known TOS characters.

I know nuBSG did it but frankly original BSG wasn't nearly as popular as Star Trek.

TAS made some characters alien but removed poor Chekov from the scene. So it probaly was GRS intention to have more aliens on board if theyt could do it inexpensively. The nuMovies have alien extras and Keenser. Its difficult to include more aliens at the expense of the main crew. Perhaps one of the Caitain twins can pop aboard as Uhura's beta shift replacement.