Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

[SeerSGB]

TOS shows us that he had little use for people that don't join his cause.

Yep. When Khan had little use for the remaining three quarters of world who would not accept his rule, he.... got attacked by them four years later.

I'm not trying to argue that Khan was a saint. He was a very ambitious and dangerous individual. All I'm saying is that he was more than just a bad guy who wanted to kill people. The part of him that wanted to rule, build an empire, win a world. The STID writing trio didn't seem to think so. Being the most recognized villain in Star Trek, they pretty much decided to solidify that he was just a bad guy who just wants to kill people. They act it out and even spell it out.

When I look at Space Seed, I don't see that. Heck, even when I look at TWOK, his eventual demise is still tragic in and of itself because we'll never know what kind of a world Khan would have helped build. And since these movies are now action movies, I don't think the team have any desire to pursue stories like that. And if you like your direction, that's fine. Just don't tell me that NuKhan is exactly the same as the original. Not in terms of race, ethnic groups or skin color, but character.

Not saying there are the same character by the time we meet Nu-Khan. Yes, I see them as being the same man before the split in the timeline; the same historical figure and the same actions undertaken. I think STID's ideal that he's a war criminal and a genocidal supremacist , jives just fine with TOS and his smug superior attitude. And fits into the ideal that TNG+ introduced that another Khan must be avoided at all costs.

But we see two different men when each Kirk runs into them.

Nu-Khan was humbled, leashed, and had his crew (his family as his calls them) used against him. What we see is a man that's been used and looked down. And abused animal that's turning on it's master.

In Space Seed we had a Khan that was woke up, idol worshipped, and had the senior staff (minus Spock) in awe of him. Khan woke up and saw a world that still admired him.

 

[BigJake]

There's a parody of Space Seed in one of the Best of Trek books called "Requiem for a Hack".

Heh, I'll have to check it out...

 

[M'Sharak]

The whole fucking briefing room exchange makes it clear that they're only alive cause he needs their training. If they don't join him, they're fucked--training or not.

Tone the language down please.

Considering the frequency and extraordinarily long persistence of your favorite "Kirk is an a**hole" rallying cry, I sincerely hope you'll forgive me if I view this request with some small degree of skepticism.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Why not have him be a different remnant of the Eugenics Wars, or something else entirely?

I don't disagree. Personally, that's the way I would have done it (assuming this was the story they wanted to tell). Make him Joachim, or another lieutenant of Khan. But I'm not the target of Trek marketing decisions. I'm a hardcore Trekkie, I was going to see the movie in any case. I'm just glad I had a movie that I love (while acknowledging their faults) who managed the not-easy task of pleasing a large section of Trekkies, and the general movie-goer population. I understand why people dislike it, but if the choice is between a movie targeted only to Trekkies that will bomb at the box-office and nearly kill the franchise (cue Nemesis) and a movie targeted to everybody (including a majority of Trekkies) that is a success and ensures the continuation of the legacy at the expenses of a few purists... well, I'm sorry. The need of the many and all that jazz.

Story-wise, there was no need for John Harrison to be Khan. Marketing-wise, there was no way they were going to do a "revenge of the augment" plot and not have John Harrison be Khan. I have no troubles accounting for real-life reasons in this.

Did the movie or the reboot franchise as a whole really gain that much from putting itself in the same frame as TWOK?

Numbers. And in the end, that's the bottom line. It was the bottom line in TOS, the bottom line in TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT, and it is the bottom line for Abram's Trek. Khan was too much of a crowd teaser to avoid him.

 

[Nerys Myk]

So you're saying that Khan had to be played by a white actor wearing brown make-up, who speaks with a Spanish accent on the grounds of consistency?

Don't be obtuse.

Sarcasm ( something even Spock would recognize) and a touch of hyperbole to point out the absurdity of your statement. Which you've kindly reiterated below

However they manage it, the skin tone in later productions should have been at least close to Original Khan. And yes, they should have used an actor who could pull off a similar accent.

So yes to brown face and a Spanish accent for character who's supposed to be a Sikh and an Indian?

1. Marla was an idiot.

No, the writers and producers of "Space Seed" were idiots. They wrote the line about Khan being a Sikh, yet ignored the recommendations of DeForest Research about proper Sikh names and appearance (Khan and Noonien are not Sikh names and nothing about Khan's appearance says Sikh or even Indian).

I guess they figured the audience was too dumb to notice.

2. It's barely plausible that the historical records she studied about Sikhs contained incomplete or incorrect information.

That would require the entirety of Sikh culture to have vanished without a trace. So yeah, implausible for a trained historian to get it wrong. Especially one seemingly enamored with the 20th Century,

3. Greg Cox did such a wonderful job with his Khan trilogy, I don't even think about what skin tone Ricardo Montalban really was (in fact, I never knew he was any tone other than those he portrayed in "Space Seed" or Bonanza until I saw him on Fantasy Island)

. The first two books were fanwankery to the extreme. The third book was excellent.

He can be an ethnic Sikh without being a practicing Sikh. His surname implies that he is most likely ethnically Sikh.

Which doesn't explain how Marla would know he's a Sikh on sight, when she doesn't know his name.

All male Sikhs adopt the name "Singh", so no matter what name Khan was born with. it would have changed to "Singh" when becoming a Sikh. My speculation is "Khan Noonien Singh" is not his real name, but one he took upon his rise to power. Khan to appeal to the Muslim population and Singh to appeal to Hindus and Sikhs. No clue about Noonien. Maybe it appeals to Buddhists.

 

[SeerSGB]

So you're saying that Khan had to be played by a white actor wearing brown make-up, who speaks with a Spanish accent on the grounds of consistency?

Don't be obtuse.

Sarcasm ( something even Spock would recognize) and a touch of hyperbole to point out the absurdity of your statement. Which you've kindly reiterated below

So yes to brown face and a Spanish accent for character who's supposed to be a Sikh and an Indian?


No, the writers and producers of "Space Seed" were idiots. They wrote the line about Khan being a Sikh, yet ignored the recommendations of DeForest Research about proper Sikh names and appearance (Khan and Noonien are not Sikh names and nothing about Khan's appearance says Sikh or even Indian).

I guess they figured the audience was too dumb to notice.

That would require the entirety of Sikh culture to have vanished without a trace. So yeah, implausible for a trained historian to get it wrong. Especially one seemingly enamored with the 20th Century,

3. Greg Cox did such a wonderful job with his Khan trilogy, I don't even think about what skin tone Ricardo Montalban really was (in fact, I never knew he was any tone other than those he portrayed in "Space Seed" or Bonanza until I saw him on Fantasy Island)

. The first two books were fanwankery to the extreme. The third book was excellent.

He can be an ethnic Sikh without being a practicing Sikh. His surname implies that he is most likely ethnically Sikh.

Which doesn't explain how Marla would know he's a Sikh on sight, when she doesn't know his name.

All male Sikhs adopt the name "Singh", so no matter what name Khan was born with. it would have changed to "Singh" when becoming a Sikh. My speculation is "Khan Noonien Singh" is not his real name, but one he took upon his rise to power. Khan to appeal to the Muslim population and Singh to appeal to Hindus and Sikhs. No clue about Noonien. Maybe it appeals to Buddhists.

Hell, maybe "Noonien" comes from the name of one of the scientist. Another Soong family member.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Since Khan ruled by intimidation and conquest (like all Augments did), why would he have cared about "appealing" to any group? His kind *forced* people to accept his rule, they logically did not have to care about whether they had appealing names.

 

[Nerys Myk]

.

All male Sikhs adopt the name "Singh", so no matter what name Khan was born with. it would have changed to "Singh" when becoming a Sikh. My speculation is "Khan Noonien Singh" is not his real name, but one he took upon his rise to power. Khan to appeal to the Muslim population and Singh to appeal to Hindus and Sikhs. No clue about Noonien. Maybe it appeals to Buddhists.

Hell, maybe "Noonien" comes from the name of one of the scientist. Another Soong family member.

Ah yes, "Noonien Soong", played by that famous Chinese actor Brent Spiner.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Since Khan ruled by intimidation and conquest (like all Augments did), why would he have cared about "appealing" to any group? His kind *forced* people to accept his rule, they logically did not have to care about whether they had appealing names.

Just watch Space Seed, he's a wooer. He a Dukat. He wants to be loved, though he will force people to do so if they resist.

 

[BigJake]

Marketing-wise, there was no way they were going to do a "revenge of the augment" plot and not have John Harrison be Khan.

Yeah, no doubt. Especially given the kind of thinking that Lindelof revealed in his quote about having to be saving the Earth if you spend more than $100 million.

Just watch Space Seed, he's a wooer.

One of the things that made him so fascinating, for sure. Can't readily think of another TOS villain who can (almost) out-seduce Kirk.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Marla was a bit of an easy mark. On the other hand, Scotty and Kirk almost fell under his spell.

 

[JarodRussell]

Lindelof is full of shit. Look at Avatar, man.

That insecurity current producers suffer from is ridiculous. Maybe put a big fucking BMW logo on the Enterprise, because market research shows that's what the target audience wants to see (official reason why John McClane steals a BMW in Die Hard 4.0).

 

[BigJake]

Lindelof is full of shit. Look at Avatar, man.

QFT.

But I do take his comment to be an indication of the pressures from the money men on the writing staff of the last couple of Trek films. Cameron had to build massive clout in the industry before he could get Avatar made, no doubt because of exactly that kind of thinking... which is still skittish about SF period.

 

[Set Harth]

Especially given the kind of thinking that Lindelof revealed in his quote about having to be saving the Earth if you spend more than $100 million.

So, more saving the Earth next time. Yay.

 

[Nerys Myk]

You guys read a lot of comments and interviews. Not sure I've ever read a comment by Lindlelof ( or Orci, Kurtzman, Abrams et al ) unless it was quoted here.

 

[BigJake]

So, more saving the Earth next time. Yay.

I'm still betting "centre of the galaxy" for the next one.

You guys read a lot of comments and interviews.

Actually that Lindelof comment is from a podcast someone linked in a thread here about a week back.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

So over saving the earth. Let it die already.

 

[Nerys Myk]

So, more saving the Earth next time. Yay.

I'm still betting "centre of the galaxy" for the next one.

You guys read a lot of comments and interviews.

Actually that Lindelof comment is from a podcast someone linked in a thread here about a week back.

I'm not into the podcast thing either. My interest in the "Man behind the curtain" has waned a lot as I've grown older.

 

[SeerSGB]

So over saving the earth. Let it die already.

Earth is so overhyped in Trek. "Federation of hundreds of world, dozens of lifeforms...Humans and Earth must be protected at all costs! They're the center of the universe!"

Say what I will about Enterprise at times, but I give 'em credit for actually having an enemy that showed up and bitch slapped the Earth. My mistake was thinking that they'd actually take the risk and have Earth get nuked--if even for a few episode.

I would throw money at the screen if we got one movie, one episode, were the rest of the Federation didn't treat humanity like something special and let Earth and humanity twist in the wind.

 

[Nerys Myk]

All this Earth hate makes me want to join Terra Prime,