Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

[iguana_tonante]

Next on "Star Trek: Because Fuck Science!":

Brown-skinned people are actually just tanned, and they become white when kept out of the sun for long.

Good grief.

 

[F. King Daniel]

*Cut to Sisko having special lightbulbs installed throughout DS9*

 

[Timewalker]

I don't find that convincing enough to change him so drastically. There should be some resemblance creeping through, even nuKirk had his moments that sparked of Prime Kirk. I didn't get any of that from Cumberbatch Khan. It just seems like a result of the character initially just being John Harrison in the first couple of drafts, before they decided to change him to Khan because of Lindelof's "he's Star Trek's Joker" argument.

If they'd left him as John Harrison, they could have still made him one of the genetically engineered people. That would have given the audience another, completely different character to think about. After all, we weren't introduced to more than a couple of Original Khan's followers.

If Montalban's normal complexion was indeed pale, they should have done his makeup in the movie to match how he was in the TV show. Or maybe it's simply a matter of people who live for many year out of the natural sunlight (only an idiot would go out on the surface of Ceti Alpha V bareskinned) would be paler than they might otherwise be.

I'm pretty sure if your skin is naturally dark, no amount of time away from natural sunlight is going to make your skin that pale. The contortions you're going through to rationalize Montalban's casting does little to help your case.

Isn't it lucky that I don't have to "rationalize" it, as it wasn't my decision. It also wasn't my decision as to how to present the character in either the TV show or the movie.

Saavik v.2 was apparently retconned as being a full Vulcan instead of a Vulcan-Romulan hybrid. And although I really didn't care for Robin Curtis' performance, what difference does it make about her ethnic background vs Kirstey Alley's ethnic background? They looked basically identical in the superficial ways that matter for character continuity. The same can't be said about Khan/nuKhan.

Why would changing Saavik's backstory change her looks?

There are minute, but noticeable differences between Saavik played by Alley and Saavik played by Curtis that are entirely due to the way the character is presented.

You're the one who brought up the ethic differences between Cumberbatch and Montalban. Alley and Curtis are also of different ethnic backgrounds, yet that's okay, even though other than being brunette females, they look nothing alike. Cumberbatch and Montalban look more alike that Curtis and Alley.

I guess it's my turn to say, "You have to be kidding, right?". To me there's not a lot of difference between the two actresses, and a vast difference between the two Khan actors. You do realize that I'm talking about how their characters look, as opposed to what they themselves may look out of makeup and costume?

 

[BigJake]

I guess all brown people look the same to you, including white people with dirt on their faces. I guess blackface works for playing African-Americans

Dude. W. The actual. F. Really?

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'm pretty sure if your skin is naturally dark, no amount of time away from natural sunlight is going to make your skin that pale. The contortions you're going through to rationalize Montalban's casting does little to help your case.

Isn't it lucky that I don't have to "rationalize" it, as it wasn't my decision. It also wasn't my decision as to how to present the character in either the TV show or the movie.

Yes, but you're the one who's making excuses as to why its okay for a white actor in "brown face" to play an Indian and coming up with crackpot theories as to why he's white in TWOK.

Why would changing Saavik's backstory change her looks?

There are minute, but noticeable differences between Saavik played by Alley and Saavik played by Curtis that are entirely due to the way the character is presented.

True, but unrelated to how Alley and Curtis differ in looks.

You're the one who brought up the ethic differences between Cumberbatch and Montalban. Alley and Curtis are also of different ethnic backgrounds, yet that's okay, even though other than being brunette females, they look nothing alike. Cumberbatch and Montalban look more alike that Curtis and Alley.

I guess it's my turn to say, "You have to be kidding, right?". To me there's not a lot of difference between the two actresses, and a vast difference between the two Khan actors. You do realize that I'm talking about how their characters look, as opposed to what they themselves may look out of makeup and costume?

So am I. They have different builds, different facial features, different skin tones, different hair textures and different eye colors. ( to name a few) So there's a lot of difference between the two actresses as they looked as Saavik. (No offense to Ms. Curtis, but I've no idea what she looks like in real life.)

I didn't notice the similarities between Cumberbatch and Montalban until someone here posted side by side pictures. Trust me, I was surprised.

 

[Timewalker]

I'm pretty sure if your skin is naturally dark, no amount of time away from natural sunlight is going to make your skin that pale. The contortions you're going through to rationalize Montalban's casting does little to help your case.

Isn't it lucky that I don't have to "rationalize" it, as it wasn't my decision. It also wasn't my decision as to how to present the character in either the TV show or the movie.

Yes, but you're the one who's making excuses as to why its okay for a white actor in "brown face" to play an Indian and coming up with crackpot theories as to why he's white in TWOK.

I haven't come up with any theories that other fans haven't come up with first.

Next you'll be telling me that you wouldn't even blink if some future movie had a white, red-haired Uhura or Scotty played by a Chinese actor, or Kirk played by a woman.

NuKhan is not consistent with Original Khan. I don't give a damn if Original Khan had been played by an alien from Jupiter. If they're going to reuse an old character, there should have been more effort at consistency, in physical appearance and accent.

I'd have been perfectly okay with the actor if he wasn't playing that particular character.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Isn't it lucky that I don't have to "rationalize" it, as it wasn't my decision. It also wasn't my decision as to how to present the character in either the TV show or the movie.

Yes, but you're the one who's making excuses as to why its okay for a white actor in "brown face" to play an Indian and coming up with crackpot theories as to why he's white in TWOK.

I haven't come up with any theories that other fans haven't come up with first.

Next you'll be telling me that you wouldn't even blink if some future movie had a white, red-haired Uhura or Scotty played by a Chinese actor, or Kirk played by a woman.

NuKhan is not consistent with Original Khan. I don't give a damn if Original Khan had been played by an alien from Jupiter. If they're going to reuse an old character, there should have been more effort at consistency, in physical appearance and accent.

I'd have been perfectly okay with the actor if he wasn't playing that particular character.

Ah, so you're just parroting crackpot theories. So much better.

Khan's been played by two white guys in three appearances. Once in "brownface". Not seeing that as the same thing as ginger Uhura and Chinese Scotty.

So you're saying that Khan had to be played by a white actor wearing brown make-up, who speaks with a Spanish accent on the grounds of consistency?

 

[SeerSGB]

Isn't it lucky that I don't have to "rationalize" it, as it wasn't my decision. It also wasn't my decision as to how to present the character in either the TV show or the movie.

Yes, but you're the one who's making excuses as to why its okay for a white actor in "brown face" to play an Indian and coming up with crackpot theories as to why he's white in TWOK.

I haven't come up with any theories that other fans haven't come up with first.

Next you'll be telling me that you wouldn't even blink if some future movie had a white, red-haired Uhura or Scotty played by a Chinese actor, or Kirk played by a woman.

NuKhan is not consistent with Original Khan. I don't give a damn if Original Khan had been played by an alien from Jupiter. If they're going to reuse an old character, there should have been more effort at consistency, in physical appearance and accent.

I'd have been perfectly okay with the actor if he wasn't playing that particular character.

If they're good actors? I'd be cool with it. Best person for the job and all that.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Next you'll be telling me that you wouldn't even blink if some future movie had a white, red-haired Uhura or Scotty played by a Chinese actor, or Kirk played by a woman.

Perry White was black in Man of Steel, and was still very much the head of the Daily Planet. Characters and the actors that portray them are not one and the same. There are two modern-day versions of Sherlock Holmes around - Benedict Cumberbatch's version from Sherlock and Johnny Lee Miller's from Elementary. Not only are they very different versions of the same character, but in the latter version Watson and Moriarty are both women.

NuKhan is not consistent with Original Khan. I don't give a damn if Original Khan had been played by an alien from Jupiter. If they're going to reuse an old character, there should have been more effort at consistency, in physical appearance and accent.

I'd have been perfectly okay with the actor if he wasn't playing that particular character.

Khan in Space Seed is not consistent with Khan in Wrath of Khan, in either appearance (brownface to white), backstory (selective breeding to genetic engineering), companions (multi-ethnic crew of roughly Khan's age to a group of Aryan youths). His chief henchman changes even more in appearance, and spelling/pronunciation of his name, Joaquin/Joachim. And somehow the weak Marla becomes the love of Khan's life and her death the driving force behind his vendetta against Kirk.

Again, that's the extremely flexible standard set by Trek and most TV/film - what Hollywood calls broad strokes, where the writers pick and choose what elements of an older story they want to accept into a more recent story.

 

[Timewalker]

So you're saying that Khan had to be played by a white actor wearing brown make-up, who speaks with a Spanish accent on the grounds of consistency?

Don't be obtuse.

However they manage it, the skin tone in later productions should have been at least close to Original Khan. And yes, they should have used an actor who could pull off a similar accent.

Since they didn't, the character in nuTrek could have been a whole new original character and worked just fine.

Obviously, in a perfect TOS world, if they stated the character was Sikh, he should have been presented as such. Personally that detail doesn't bother me quite so much for these reasons:

1. Marla was an idiot.

2. It's barely plausible that the historical records she studied about Sikhs contained incomplete or incorrect information.

3. Greg Cox did such a wonderful job with his Khan trilogy, I don't even think about what skin tone Ricardo Montalban really was (in fact, I never knew he was any tone other than those he portrayed in "Space Seed" or Bonanza until I saw him on Fantasy Island).

 

[iguana_tonante]

I guess all brown people look the same to you, including white people with dirt on their faces. I guess blackface works for playing African-Americans

Dude. W. The actual. F. Really?

Okay, that was hyperboles. But the point still stand, she's arguing that brownface is indeed an acceptable way to portrait brown-skinned people. Let's just say I strongly disagree.

Khan's been played by two white guys in three appearances. Once in "brownface". Not seeing that as the same thing as ginger Uhura and Chinese Scotty.

That's because you are not blinded by your petrified vision of what "real" Star Trek is about.

 

[Set Harth]

I guess we'll have to add the creators of the Khan comic to the list of "racists" who see a discrepancy:

http://www.startrek.com/uploads/assets/articles/USE-Cartoon-3.png

http://www.startrek.com/uploads/assets/articles/USE-Cartoon-5.png

And somehow the weak Marla becomes the love of Khan's life and her death the driving force behind his vendetta against Kirk.

I don't see how this is supposed to be an inconsistency.

Obviously, in a perfect TOS world, if they stated the character was Sikh, he should have been presented as such.

He can be an ethnic Sikh without being a practicing Sikh. His surname implies that he is most likely ethnically Sikh.

 

[Ovation]

Next you'll be telling me that you wouldn't even blink if some future movie had a white, red-haired Uhura or Scotty played by a Chinese actor, or Kirk played by a woman.

In another reboot? Can't speak for anyone else but I'd have no trouble with any of the above (I have a weakness for redheads, I think a Chinese Scotty is no more unlikely than a native born Swede named Douglas Murray--a real case who plays for the Montreal Canadiens--and Jane Kirk would make a fine starship captain).

I have no trouble with Sean Connery, George Lazenby, Roger Moore, Timothy Dalton, Pierce Brosnan or Daniel Craig (not one of whom remotely resembles the other) as James Bond. Why would I have trouble with Cumberbatch instead of Montalban as Khan, based on looks? Why would anyone--given that Khan is a product of genetic engineering (and Montalban is as Caucasian as Cumberbatch)? IF Khan had been played by a black actor, for example, in Space Seed, then Cumberbatch would not have been an appropriate casting choice (under the parameters of this particular reboot, with the branching in 2233). But if the new movies were a hard reboot, then Cumberbatch would still be a good choice (in that situation, it would just be a matter of being like a Chinese Scotty--completely different universe and thus totally free to make radically different choices). There is no "radical difference" between Montalban and Cumberbatch.

Now, on the matter of whether Cumberbatch is good in the role (as opposed to "appropriate" for the role)? Entirely up to the viewer. But that's a separate issue. And all the false outrage at casting a "white guy" in a role where the backstory clearly allows for it, just because of a name, is absurd. It is hardly comparable (as I've read elsewhere) to making a film about George Washington and having Denzel playing George. Khan was white from the get-go (even if they used "brown face" in Space Seed, I always viewed it as a tan that had not faded because of suspended animation, while TWOK's Khan had simply not had much exposure to sunlight for 15 years and was not in suspended animation).

 

[Ryan8bit]

They have different builds, different facial features, different skin tones, different hair textures and different eye colors.

Same with Cumberbatch and Montalban. I don't think Alley and Curtis were any more different looking than those two.

 

[Jeyl]

Where in "Space Seed" or "The Wrath of Khan" does it state that Khan's entire purpose was to inflict genocide on anything he deems inferior? I would think the lines such as these would say otherwise.

Scotty: There were no massacres under his rule.
Spock: As very little freedom.
McCoy: No wars until he was attacked.​

And yet Spock Prime, the person who was in that very meeting, told NuSpock that this was Khan's purpose. The most dangerous enemy the Enterprise had ever faced. And what was the body count in Space Seed at the end?

Body Count: 0​

Robert, Alex, Damon, what the heck? I get you're trying for more of a TWOK Khan, but you're also trying to retcon the original Khan by stating he was a bona fide psychopath with the whole "genocide" bit. For all the love you proclaim yourselves to have for the original series and the character of Khan, you three sure make a habit of missing certain crucial details.

 

[JarodRussell]

There is also nothing in TWOK that suggests that he wanted to commit genocide. All he wanted in that film was to take revenge for the death of his wife.

 

[Sindatur]

GUYS! Khan is a product of eugenics, who knows how much tinkering with his looks the designers did! You can't look at a made in the lab experimental human and point to heritage because you just don't know what was messed around with.

Agreed. Matter of fact, I've always justified it to myself, that he wasn't actually Indian, they just went down the row of test tubes [or Petrie Dishes, or whatever method they use to make them], taping on arbitrary names (Let's see, we'll put Khan on this one, oh and this one can be Marilyn, and this one, we'll call him Jason... Gosh, I hope we didn't get any Female names stuck on any male test tubes )

 

[SeerSGB]

There is also nothing in TWOK that suggests that he wanted to commit genocide. All he wanted in that film was to take revenge for the death of his wife.

Well you're dealing with 2 different Khans between Space Seed and TWOK.

Space Seed, yeah I can see him being a genocidal supremacist cause of the open contempt he does display for normal humans.

Captain, although your abilities intrigue me, you are quite honestly inferior. Mentally, physically. In fact, I am surprised how little improvement there has been in human evolution. Oh, there has been technical advancement, but, how little man himself has changed. Yes, it appears we will do well in your century,

So the whole genocidal war criminal is fine by me.

TWOK Khan is just a man off the deep end. The fact that he's genetically superior is completely irrelevant to the story till they needed to make him a idiot with the whole three dimensional thinking bit . He's not the same man anymore, he's broken.

 

[Jeyl]

Space Seed, yeah I can see him being a genocidal supremacist cause of the open contempt he does display for normal humans.

Captain, although your abilities intrigue me, you are quite honestly inferior. Mentally, physically. In fact, I am surprised how little improvement there has been in human evolution. Oh, there has been technical advancement, but, how little man himself has changed. Yes, it appears we will do well in your century,

So the whole genocidal war criminal is fine by me

That doesn't make any sense considering he married a person who wasn't as superior as he was, but also a person who betrayed him. And do you really want to stick to that one time Khan talks about how superior he is? Because once Khan and his people capture the Enterprise and hold the entire crew captive, he continues this "superior" speech.

Khan: Nothing ever changes, except man. Your technical accomplishments? Improve a mechanical device and you may double productivity. But improve man and you gain a thousand fold. I am such a man. Join me. I'll treat you well. I need your training to operate a vessel this complex. ​

Join me and I'll treat you well. That does not sound like a man who wants to kill every last one of the crew without hesitation. These are his lines in regards to his time on Earth.

Khan: We offered the world ORDER!
Khan: On Earth, 200 years ago, I was a prince with power over millions!​

Where's the genocide? Where's the "Everything that is below me must die!" speeches? There isn't any because that is not in Khan's character.

 

[SeerSGB]

Space Seed, yeah I can see him being a genocidal supremacist cause of the open contempt he does display for normal humans.

Captain, although your abilities intrigue me, you are quite honestly inferior. Mentally, physically. In fact, I am surprised how little improvement there has been in human evolution. Oh, there has been technical advancement, but, how little man himself has changed. Yes, it appears we will do well in your century,

So the whole genocidal war criminal is fine by me

That doesn't make any sense considering he married a person who wasn't as superior as he was, but also a person who betrayed him. And do you really want to stick to that one time Khan talks about how superior he is? Because once Khan and his people capture the Enterprise and hold the entire crew captive, he continues this "superior" speech.

Khan: Nothing ever changes, except man. Your technical accomplishments? Improve a mechanical device and you may double productivity. But improve man and you gain a thousand fold. I am such a man. Join me. I'll treat you well. I need your training to operate a vessel this complex. ​

Join me and I'll treat you well. That does not sound like a man who wants to kill every last one of the crew without hesitation. These are his lines in regards to his time on Earth.

Khan: We offered the world ORDER!
Khan: On Earth, 200 years ago, I was a prince with power over millions!​

Where's the genocide? Where's the "Everything that is below me must die!" speeches? There isn't any because that is not in Khan's character.

Notice, he's kindness is contingent on them joining his side.

KHAN: Each of you in turn will go in there. Die while the others watch.

Just cause he's not over the top about it, doesn't make him any less smug and superior in his thinking. He and his are--in his mind--our rightful masters.

As Spock put it:

SPOCK: Unify, sir? Like a team of animals under one whip?

Side note: Spock got one hell of a "I told you so" moment from this episode.

As for Marla:

KHAN: (gazing into her eyes) It will be difficult. A struggle at first even to stay alive, to find food.
MARLA: I'll go with him, sir.
KHAN: A superior woman. I will take her. And I've gotten something else I wanted. A world to win, an empire to build.

Her backstabbing him is probably cool with him. It's what he'd done, she actually outsmarted him, it impressed him.