Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

[BigJake]

So, Jim Kirk...is he a goer?

He's from Iowa... say no more!

 

[Ovation]

Nope. This whole trope is something completely made up by people seeking a needless and unwarranted justification for sex.

Now this is a bit more interesting. Although I think your above statement is completely false, I have to admit

Since you brought up the Bond comparison, let's look at 60s bond [review snipped]

You make a very good case that the Bond comparison isn't a good one, and I happily concede. However:

I guarantee you can go episode by episode, girl by girl and get the same results for Kirk.

I'm pretty sure this is completely wrong. My recollection accords with what Archive of Our Own has to say:

Kirk does appreciate women, but most of Kirk's seductions are intended to accomplish a mission-related goal, such as to distract the woman, to secure her help, to gain more information about the situation, and so on. For example, he kisses Andrea in "What Are Little Girls Made Of" to try to confuse her and to gain her loyalty. He flirts with Miri in the episode of the same name in order to soothe her fears and to get her on their side. He kisses Sylvia in "Catspaw" to try to get information out of her. He kisses Marlena in "Mirror, Mirror" partly to maintain his cover and partly to gain her as an ally. Kelinda in "By Any Other Name," Shahana in "Gamesters of Triskelion" ... the list of women Kirk seduces in order to further non-sexual ends goes on and on. It's clear that Kirk's sexuality is a weapon as potent as his phaser . . . But using his charisma for instrumental purposes is very different from being totally driven by his sexuality.

Now, I haven't quite gone episode by episode (maybe someone has? if it's happened anywhere it would have to be here), but I'm pretty sure that doing so would confirm the above picture.

TOS Kirk (assuming your view is correct--something I concede only to make this point) is OLDER and MORE MATURE than Abrams' Kirk. The latter is working his way to the other's level of experience and maturity--why this seems to escape so many people is astonishing to me. Anyone who thinks Pine/Kirk should be the same as TOS Kirk is wrong in thinking that way. It's really not a matter of opinion. They can disagree with the way the writers have written Pine/Kirk, but there are NO grounds to expect a carbon copy of TOS Kirk in terms of behaviour. None.

 

[BillJ]

NuTrek Kirk, on the other hand, shows (and I think is meant to show) very clear evidence of not having grown up with a father figure to form him. He's a different, wilder character, and in many ways is a bit of an irresponsible punk... in fact that's explicitly part of his character arc, especially in the second movie. I'm not even saying it as a criticism, there was a lot of character work in nuTrek that of itself wasn't bad. But it's a genuine contrast between the characters.

This Jim Kirk is also nearly a decade younger than the Jim Kirk we get to know starting with Where No Man Has Gone Before. Just because he was a tight-ass at the Academy doesn't mean he didn't have his wild days where he partied and fooled around with women. Like most twenty-somethings.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Yes TOS Kirk is duty driven, and crew driven, and ship driven.

None of that precludes being in bed with two beautiful women while on shore leave. It does mean though that if Spock hails him about some minor problem right before he jumps into bed he's likely to say, "Sorry ladies.." and rush back to the ship.

 

[BigJake]

TOS Kirk (assuming your view is correct--something I concede only to make this point) is OLDER and MORE MATURE than Abrams' Kirk.

Oh, I completely agree. Moreover, TOS Kirk grew up with a completely different background than Abrams' Kirk; if the original is implied to have been a duty-driven Starfleet brat for most of his life, that by no means indicates the Abramstrek version should be likewise. I'm just pointing out that there is in fact a difference between the characters.

(Of the two of them, frankly, I'd rather go drinking with nuTrek Kirk any day of the week. Not so sure he's the one I'd rather serve under on a Starship... but the Pine character isn't necessarily Wrong.)

 

[SeerSGB]

TOS Kirk (assuming your view is correct--something I concede only to make this point) is OLDER and MORE MATURE than Abrams' Kirk.

Oh, I completely agree. Moreover, TOS Kirk grew up with a completely different background than Abrams' Kirk; if the original is implied to have been a duty-driven Starfleet brat for most of his life, that by no means indicates the Abramstrek version should be likewise. I'm just pointing out that there is in fact a difference between the characters.

(Of the two of them, frankly, I'd rather go drinking with nuTrek Kirk any day of the week. Not so sure he's the one I'd rather serve under on a Starship... but the Pine character isn't necessarily Wrong.)

Nu-Kirk is definitely drawn from the novel and comic versions of how Prime-Kirk's early life was and how his reputation is seen among others in the fleet: Smart mouth, genius, with a bad attitude that needs a kick in the ass and made to straighten up.

 

[BigJake]

Could well be, I can't really speak to novels and comics, just to what's in the shows and movies.

 

[BillJ]

Nu-Kirk is definitely drawn from the novel and comic versions of how Prime-Kirk's early life was and how his reputation is seen among others in the fleet: Smart mouth, genius, with a bad attitude that needs a kick in the ass and made to straighten up.

I don't understand why this Kirk is such a shock to Trek fans? We've been reading the young Kirk as a dick for thirty years in the novels, including Starfleet Academy: Collision Course by William Shatner.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Of course he was a hothead. You can see it in TOS Kirk, it's just we also see a mature, experienced, seasoned man. Who is wildly intelligent as well.

LOL just look at the movies, stealing the Enterprise and running off to do what he likes! And he's well into middle age!

 

[BigJake]

Just possible that "we" have not been reading him as anything, Bill. On account of not all fans are actually all that into many (or in some cases any) of the Trek novels.

LOL just look at the movies, stealing the Enterprise and running off to do what he likes! And he's well into middle age!

Kinda why the Trek movie franchise started to suck at that point for me, I'll be honest. (That and the creatively cowardly, albeit lucrative, decision to literally resurrect Spock.)

 

[SeerSGB]

Could well be, I can't really speak to novels and comics, just to what's in the shows and movies.

I think I've said this to you before (?) Best Destiny and Killing Time, couple decades old but damn near the blueprint for Nu-Kirk. Check out some of the older DC comics stuff as well. Kirk is pretty much: Most of the other officers loath his style, the cadets idol worship him for it.

 

[BillJ]

Could well be, I can't really speak to novels and comics, just to what's in the shows and movies.

I think I've said this to you before (?) Best Destiny and Killing Time, couple decades old but damn near the blueprint for Nu-Kirk. Check out some of the older DC comics stuff as well. Kirk is pretty much: Most of the other officers loath his style, the cadets idol worship him for it.

There are many great Kirk stories in those early novels and the DC Comics TOS first run.

 

[BigJake]

Could well be, I can't really speak to novels and comics, just to what's in the shows and movies.

I think I've said this to you before (?) Best Destiny and Killing Time, couple decades old but damn near the blueprint for Nu-Kirk.

Wasn't me, but sure, I'll check them out when I have a chance, thanks.

Check out some of the older DC comics stuff as well. Kirk is pretty much: Most of the other officers loath his style, the cadets idol worship him for it.

Might let the comics be, though. I think I'd like to leave my TOS-formed sense of Kirk as a mensch-among-mensches to his fellow Captains (and occasional Commodores) unsullied.

 

[SeerSGB]

Could well be, I can't really speak to novels and comics, just to what's in the shows and movies.

I think I've said this to you before (?) Best Destiny and Killing Time, couple decades old but damn near the blueprint for Nu-Kirk. Check out some of the older DC comics stuff as well. Kirk is pretty much: Most of the other officers loath his style, the cadets idol worship him for it.

There are many great Kirk stories in those early novels and the DC Comics TOS first run.

DC loved having Kirk's past choices coming back to bite his ass. Though "Homecoming" is really underrated: Kirk using the Federation version of CNN to save his ass and cause Starfleet such a big PR nightmare they end up giving him the Excelsior to command.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

LOL just look at the movies, stealing the Enterprise and running off to do what he likes! And he's well into middle age!

Kinda why the Trek movie franchise started to suck at that point for me, I'll be honest. (That and the creatively cowardly, albeit lucrative, decision to literally resurrect Spock.)

Captain Kirk is a HERO. A larger than life fictional hero.

He's the one Trek character that fills that role with all its hyperbole and flying-in-the-face of everything and refusal to be as realistic as some people want.

He's a larger than life personality and I'm glad Trek just ran with that.

 

[SeerSGB]

Just possible that "we" have not been reading him as anything, Bill. On account of not all fans are actually all that into many (or in some cases any) of the Trek novels.

LOL just look at the movies, stealing the Enterprise and running off to do what he likes! And he's well into middle age!

Kinda why the Trek movie franchise started to suck at that point for me, I'll be honest. (That and the creatively cowardly, albeit lucrative, decision to literally resurrect Spock.)

If you check out the comics, start with "The Mirror Universe Saga" (epilogue to STIII and a sequel to Mirror Mirror), Idol Threats, Paradise Lost.

 

[BigJake]

He's the one Trek character that fills that role with all its hyperbole and flying-in-the-face of everything and refusal to be as realistic as some people want.

Meh, I wouldn't say that TOS Kirk's strengths came from a "refusal to be realistic," more that he was Roddenberry's (and Shatner's) conception of an idealized larger-than-life (Space) Navy man of his era.

But I'm a uniter, not a divider. If we must agree to disagree on that (as I'm guessing we must, and notwithstanding my clarifications that nuTrek Kirk's character work isn't one of the things I dislike about nuTrek), surely we can agree that your Kate Mulgrew-and-the-Obamas avatar is pure unadulterated awesomeness.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I mean the character is not realistic, if by realistic we mean how a real starfleet officer would behave. You seem to be saying that the movies went downhill in part because of this kind of storyline with Kirk, stealing the Enterprise etc.. I'm saying that while most of the good guys, dutiful starfleet officers, that Trek is full of behave in ways that are sensible within the context of their roles as officers. Kirk is a different kind of character, one in the hero role which steps outside of that. Trek doesn't fill itself with these kinds of characters because it tries to tell realistic stories about humanity in space but it does have one Hero who gets to pretty much do what he wants and come out on top, brilliantly. I'm saying that Captain Kirk is treated differently and is a unique individual as far as Trek goes.

And yes Kate is very happily married to Barack and has two lovely daughters neither of whom unfortunately is named Phoebe.

 

[Nerys Myk]

NuTrek Kirk, on the other hand, shows (and I think is meant to show) very clear evidence of not having grown up with a father figure to form him. He's a different, wilder character, and in many ways is a bit of an irresponsible punk... in fact that's explicitly part of his character arc, especially in the second movie. I'm not even saying it as a criticism, there was a lot of character work in nuTrek that of itself wasn't bad. But it's a genuine contrast between the characters.

This Jim Kirk is also nearly a decade younger than the Jim Kirk we get to know starting with Where No Man Has Gone Before. Just because he was a tight-ass at the Academy doesn't mean he didn't have his wild days where he partied and fooled around with women. Like most twenty-somethings.

I think Ruth, Janice Wallace and Carol Marcus could attest to that.

 

[BigJake]

If you check out the comics, start with "The Mirror Universe Saga" (epilogue to STIII and a sequel to Mirror Mirror), Idol Threats, Paradise Lost.

Thanks for the links! They're appreciated.