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Opinion circa 1987: TNG is NOT Star Trek

That was 10 years earlier. I think I recognized him as the guy from Reading Rainbow but not too much of a household name like other actors at the time.

Yeah, and Reading Rainbow was very popular. It got a bunch of awards and nominations, just as Roots had done. Burton was known for lead roles in two very big TV hits, one of which was ongoing, and he had multiple Emmy nominations. So yes, I'd say he was a household name. He wasn't a mega-celebrity, no, but he was anything but obscure. I remember that the early reporting about TNG mentioned him heavily, because he was certainly the best-known cast member in the US.


I'd imagine that none of those actors were really familiar with general audiences. At least not enough to be draws on their own.

Ummmm... Who cares? None of the TOS cast members were huge names. Shatner was an up-and-coming actor in whom many saw star potential, but he hadn't had a huge hit yet. The rest were working actors who'd been seen in various places but weren't breakout stars. The collective fame of the TNG cast at the start of the series was greater than that of the TOS cast at the start of theirs, largely thanks to Burton.
 
Yeah, and Reading Rainbow was very popular. It got a bunch of awards and nominations, just as Roots had done. Burton was known for lead roles in two very big TV hits, one of which was ongoing, and he had multiple Emmy nominations. So yes, I'd say he was a household name. He wasn't a mega-celebrity, no, but he was anything but obscure. I remember that the early reporting about TNG mentioned him heavily, because he was certainly the best-known cast member in the US.
So the most famous actor of the show wasn’t even the Captain, or 2nd in command and had part of his face partially obscured for the entirety of the show.
I liked Reading Rainbow as a kid too, but that didn’t sell me at all on TNG. There were a variety of factors as to why it wasn’t clicking for me, one of them being I had no connection at all to this new crew and premise, whereas Star Trek to me was Captain Kirk and Spock and I was familiar with them. And I was aware that the “real” Star Trek was taking place on the big screen. If they had cast more well known actors, a more typical leading man, action hero as Captain, maybe someone like me wouldn’t have been so stuck up about the show at first. Just like how Hollywood tries to cast films with leafs who are well known with the public and known to draw audiences.
That said, had they gone the typical Hollywood route with casting, who’s to stay it would have been good? Stewart turned out to be perfect for the part.

Ummmm... Who cares? None of the TOS cast members were huge names. Shatner was an up-and-coming actor in whom many saw star potential, but he hadn't had a huge hit yet.
Yeah, and TOS struggled and got cancelled. Not to mention no one had any idea of what Star Trek was supposed to be when it first aired in 1966, so there were no fan expectations yet.
The collective fame of the TNG cast at the start of the series was greater than that of the TOS cast at the start of theirs, largely thanks to Burton.
The key difference is that by the time of TNG, Shatner and Nimoy were already known for playing iconic characters who were now part of pop-culture and were also movie stars in a series of popular and successful Star Trek films. So if you grow accustomed to certain characters, in a big budget space epic that’s now on the big screen, featuring now-well-known actors, and then you see a TV spin off of that same space epic featuring an old bald guy in the place of Captain Kirk, with a considerably lower budget, different tone, and the biggest star is the guy from Reading Rainbow on PBS, yeah some fans are going to be resistant.
 
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Lets not even talk about NX-01....Jesus

NX-01 was top of the line, for Earth of its time. That it survived superior forces, often outnumbered, and the Delphic Expanse speaks well for it.

Discovery is a bloody science vessel

So is Enterprise. Any Enterprise from NX-01 on.

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And Discovery became, briefly, the mos dangerous warship in the quadrant.
 
So the most famous actor of the show wasn’t even the Captain, or 2nd in command and had part of his face partially obscured for the entirety of the show.

Again, who cares about prior fame? How is that relevant to worth? Anyone who thought Patrick Stewart could be dismissed because he wasn't a household name in the US was quickly proven very, very wrong.


yeah some fans are going to be resistant.

I honestly don't know what point you're trying to make here. I don't need this pointed out to me; I pointed it out myself in my very first post in this thread:
But TNG in particular had a major uphill battle for acceptance, since it was the first time anyone had tried doing Trek that wasn't about Kirk, Spock, etc., that was in a different century with different characters. It was always popular with general audiences, but hardcore TOS purists resisted it for years, and a number of the TOS actors were hostile to it as well, since they were afraid the new cast would replace them in the movies.

So yeah, of course there was resistance. We already know that. There was ferocious resistance, at least as severe as Discovery and Picard are getting today. This does not need to be reasserted. What matters is that the resistance faded. TNG turned out to be a great show, despite the initial negativity from some quarters. That question was settled decades ago.
 
Anyone who thought Patrick Stewart could be dismissed because he wasn't a household name in the US was quickly proven very, very wrong.
Yeah, obviously. But you were the one acting like you couldn’t fathom why a spin-off featuring none of the original cast wouldn’t be met with open arms initially.

Then when I bring up there were no big names in TNG compared to Shatner and Nimoy you start reaching, like Jonathan Frakes had a role in some ABC mini-series is gonna carry that much weight with fans. Oh but Reading Rainbow won awards. Definitely don’t need Kirk now that we got that guy!

We already know that.
Then find another thread if it bothers you so much.
 
But you were the one acting like you couldn’t fathom why a spin-off featuring none of the original cast wouldn’t be met with open arms initially.

I have no idea what gave you the impression that I "couldn't fathom" it. I was the one who described it in this thread in the first place. But understanding a thing does not require agreeing with it. Obviously history has proven it to be wrong, so what's the point in defending it?


Then when I bring up there were no big names in TNG compared to Shatner and Nimoy you start reaching, like Jonathan Frakes had a role in some ABC mini-series is gonna carry that much weight with fans.

I was never making any such assertion. I was merely refuting your hyperbole that the actors were complete unknowns. They were on a comparable level of prominence to the TOS cast in the '60s, probably somewhat more so. Just because you want to cast everything in terms of melodramatic extremes, that doesn't mean I do the same. I'm merely trying to report the facts without any ideological agenda. Agendas just get in the way of knowledge.
 
Again, we’re comparing the 80s perception of TOS to the introduction of the 80s spin-off, TNG.

60s Shatner and Nimoy, at the beginning of TOS were not perceived the same way by the general public as they were by the time of 1987.

And hyperbole is kind of the theme. It’s hinted at in the thread title.
 
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There are three good things about TNG S1-S2:
1. Elementary, Dear Data
2. The Measure of a Man
..

Ron Jones!
Dennis McCarthy when he was allowed to groove! I mean, from what I heard, they hired him because of his work on V, which was as thematic and repetitive as one got (but Lort, I loved it). Then turned around and said "no themes!" I don't gig Berman for much, but his views on music were just baffling. Thankfully, McCarthy was allowed to stetch in Generations and then that broke the musical doldums to a great degree. There was real energy to those early episodes thanks to the music.
 
..

Ron Jones!
Dennis McCarthy when he was allowed to groove! I mean, from what I heard, they hired him because of his work on V, which was as thematic and repetitive as one got (but Lort, I loved it). Then turned around and said "no themes!" I don't gig Berman for much, but his views on music were just baffling. Thankfully, McCarthy was allowed to stetch in Generations and then that broke the musical doldums to a great degree. There was real energy to those early episodes thanks to the music.

I used to use Jones and McCarthys music while playing ST Online
 
The artistic vision behind TNG is cleary very close to TOS. It is a natural continuation of the fictional Star Trek universe.
Not to this TOS fan (who saw it first run on NBC.) - the setting was quite different - as was the tone. The only connection seemed to be the set dressers for Season 1 trying to fit whatever TOS era prop they could get in the background of a shot to effectively scream to the audience - See? Whatever you think, this IS Star Trek."

from day one, it never felt 'very close' to TOS in any real way. In fact GR seemed to go out of his way to be saying to the audience - "This is Star trek now; FORGET the original series."

Hell, in my TV market in 1987, KCOP (Channel 13) started sandwiching a new S1 TNG episode between two TOS episodes (one before and one after) in an attempt to GET the original Star Trek fans to stay and watch the show.
 
That's funny about them mixing in TNG to convince fans.

TNG was like capturing lightning in a bottle, for me.
I wasn't keen on it as a kid, but I didn't have cable, so options were limited and I reluctantly watched it, which was better than the news. It didn't feel action packed, it didn't have the action-hero archetype that kids like me were used to, and the episodes were slow-paced. If it weren't a syndicated show it probably would have bene cancelled and today we'd all be talking about how TNG was a poor attempt at continuing the series.

In hindsight, all the circumstances that created early TNG, and on towards the end were necessary . I definitely appreciate the slower paced nature of the show, and how it's not all action packed. I get that I'm in the minority, but I actually like the first two seasons. I think it's one of those shows that grew on people and you had to develop a taste for.
I think there's a notable difference in tone between how people act in S1 and S1 compared to later seasons when Roddenberry's influence was being pushed out, and I think it's for the better. But as a whole, I like the progression as it offers some pros and cons between both halves.
 
"The TOS Enterprise's pylons and visual look do not match the rest of Star Trek! They're too primitive and no modern audience will buy them! People have more sophisticated tastes nowadays!"

There. I got you started. You can thank me later. ;)
 
Whenever I see anyone declaring any part of Star Trek to be "not Star Trek", I fight back the urge to point out that sure it is, it's right there in the title.
 
As atrociously bad as Saturday Night Live was from 1980 to 1981 I can assure everybody that, yes, it was still SNL and right down to the core. Quality does not negate status when it comes a television series or film in a franchise.

Die Another Day is hot vomit. It's still the last official film in the original Bond movie continuity and that mess of a plot was the last adventure of the Connery/Lazenby/Moore/Dalton/Brosnan 007 even if you wish it didn't exist. It's just as much James Bond as Oddjob, an Aston Martin or a vodka martini that's been shaken and not stirred.
 
Usenet comments from 1992, when DS9 was announced:

"This sounds really bad. If Paramount goes for a really sleazy spin-off they're going to see viewer alienation on a scale they never conceived of when they were fearing for the reaction to the debut of TNG."

"However, I'm not looking forward to "DSN" at this point in the least. The entire idea sounds like an excuse for Paramont to make a low-budget rippoff under the assumption that Star Trek fans are fools who will watch anything they put on the air. Maybe we will hear otherwise, but I kind of doubt it. At this point it looks like DSN may well be the end of Star Trek..... The series will flop, and Paramont will discontinue their Star Trek efforts when they realize they can't make quick bucks as easy as they thought (hell, this is the premise of nearly ALL american companies at this point anyway... Quick Bucks only and no looking for quality)..."

"Once the ST universe was open, with endless paths to be travelled, now thru 5 mind numbing years of TNG (alright 3.75 years of it where actually bad.) The ST universe has become bogged down in trying to over explain itself with techo babble and stagnating cultures. [I like the Klingons but if I see another Klingon in DSN, Ill have to retch.]"

"As a Star Trek fan for over 12 years(63.15% of my life), I will state for the record that if this show is Paramount's view of Star Trek, I WILL NOT WATCH IT !!!!!"

"A quick question. Had Gene Roddenberry anything at all to do with the creation of the writers' bible of DSN (or DS9), if there is one ? If not then I don't really think it should be called Star Trek."
 
Every new incarnation of Star Trek since 1973 has been dismissed by a segment of fandom as "NOT Star Trek." It's always the same rhetoric every time -- "It's not exactly like what came before, therefore it's wrong." But TNG in particular had a major uphill battle for acceptance, since it was the first time anyone had tried doing Trek that wasn't about Kirk, Spock, etc., that was in a different century with different characters. It was always popular with general audiences, but hardcore TOS purists resisted it for years, and a number of the TOS actors were hostile to it as well, since they were afraid the new cast would replace them in the movies.

Couldn't agree more with that statement. As iI have already said elsewhere, every new incarnation of star trek is generally different in its on unique ways but as long as it holds true to the basic core philosophy of star trek, then its star trek whichever way you happen to look at it.






The thing you have to keep in mind about early TNG is that, for all its weaknesses in writing and production values, most of '80s SFTV was much, much worse. This was the decade of Knight Rider, Automan, Voyagers!, and Manimal. There were a few worthwhile SF shows in that decade -- the original V miniseries (though not its dumber sequels), the Twilight Zone revival, The Ray Bradbury Theater on cable, the heartfelt Starman in '86, and Max Headroom the same year TNG premiered. But most SFTV at the time was dumb and cheesy. So when TNG came along, it seemed brilliant in comparison -- smart, well-written, well-produced, with a top-notch cast. But it paved the way for a major improvement in SFTV over the years ahead -- its own writing improved massively by season 3, and the rest of SFTV started to improve alongside it, with shows like Quantum Leap and Alien Nation and Babylon 5 coming along, and so those first two seasons of TNG that looked so good at the time ended up seeming much weaker in retrospect.
 
"Once the ST universe was open, with endless paths to be travelled, now thru 5 mind numbing years of TNG (alright 3.75 years of it where actually bad.) The ST universe has become bogged down in trying to over explain itself with techo babble and stagnating cultures. [I like the Klingons but if I see another Klingon in DSN, Ill have to retch.]"

If these were comments when DS9 was announced, why was this person saying, "If I see another Klingon in DSN, I'll have to retch"? They make it sound like they were watching it when Dorn came aboard.
 
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