Only with Gene...

[RookieBatman]

I've been reading some nonfiction books about Star Trek, that were written during the period between the series and the first movie. In interviews with the cast, the question "would you want to do Star Trek again?" invariably pops up, and in general, the answer is some variation of "yes, but only if Gene Roddenberry is in charge." Naturally, this makes sense coming off of Freiberger's Follies in season three, and most sources do indicate that Gene's special touch was what gave the show that little extra something. So, them saying this does make sense.

But then TMP comes along, and Gene writes it, and I guess he was one of the producers, or something? Not sure what his exact position was there. And I haven't read up on Phase 2 yet, so I'm unclear as to how the work on that project may have affected Gene's reputation internally. But ultimately, wouldn't one have to say that the director would be the one who was in charge? And, of course, Gene wasn't the director. But he still wrote the script and had some level of input.

But then TWOK comes along, and at this point, Gene was pretty much out of the process, wasn't he? Again, I haven't read up as much on this era, but it seemed like he may have gotten a little paycheck as an advisor, but didn't really have any control. And yet, all the cast is there, for those and four more movies, despite Gene not being in charge.

I'm not trying to vilify any of them; I like the movies, so I'm overall glad they didn't take their ball and go home. But on a philosophical level, I'm curious as to why they changed their stance. Was it just the money? Were they disenchanted by the negative experience of TMP? (What I've heard is that most of the cast weren't having a great time for that movie.) Did they just decide that Roddenberry just wasn't as good as he used to be, or what? (I'm sure the real answer is probably a little of everything, but I think there's still room for discussion.)

 

[Michael]

I'm pretty sure it has a whole lot to do with money ...

 

[Forbin]

"I'll only do it if Gene is on board"

"We'll give you 3 million dollars"

"I'm in."

I'd do it too.

 

[RookieBatman]

Yeah, that certainly does seem like the simplest explanation. And like I said, I don't even think the movies turned out badly. But I kinda wonder if any of them ever felt like they were betraying him, just a little...

 

[Anji]

Be careful what you read in those books. In many cases it is difficult to tell who is telling the truth and who is just plain jealous. And even today there is a lot of jealousy floating around concerning Mr. Roddenberry.

But what you're asking for is a pretty tall order. Remember, those are the days before the internet and fans only found out information like that by talking at conventions or if they were really close talking on the phone.

I can tell you what I heard, but again, this is all what I heard on the grapevine.

Star Trek II was unexpected. The reason that we believed the movie was made was because Paramount wanted to capitalize on the science fiction craze that was started by Lucas and Spielberg. Lucas, especially, made a lot of money off the merchandising and our guess was Paramount wanted to get into that.

But in those days we were optimists and THRILLED to have a new Star Trek movie and we didn't care about the motivations of the studio.

As far as Gene's involvement, I have never heard he was pushed to the side. I have always known he was executive producer and had a final say on what went out. And as far as I am concerned, if you look at the context of the film, the Roddenbery touch is there, elements of humanism and kindness which is absent from Star Trek produced after his death.

 

[Therin of Andor]

But then TMP comes along, and Gene writes it, and I guess he was one of the producers, or something?

He wrote the story "Robot's Return", which Alan Dean Foster turned into the story of "In Thy Image", which Harold Livingston turned into a script and ramped it up into TMP.

But ultimately, wouldn't one have to say that the director would be the one who was in charge?

But GR was also Executive Producer, so Robert Wise essentialy reported to him. Wise demanded plenty of changes, such as to upgrading TV quality "Phase II" sets, uniforms, etc. GR was still very hands-on.

But then TWOK comes along, and at this point, Gene was pretty much out of the process... And yet, all the cast is there, for those and four more movies, despite Gene not being in charge.

The contracts the cast signed for TMP gave the studio options to force the actors to do ST II if the first movie was successful, although it turned out that all-new contracts were negotiated with each sequel. The cast were keen to "do it properly" after TMP's critical failure. Note that George Takei originally steadfastly refused to join the ST II cast (until Nick Meyer and Harve Bennett promised him a promotion-to-captain scene), and Nimoy was very reluctant to come back (until Bennett tempted him with performing Spock's death scene).

Majel Barrett publicly stated she was refusing to participate in ST II because her husband had been marginalized by Paramount. (Interestingly, there were ST II-style white surgical scrubs with Majel's name in them, so they may well have prepared costumes for her, or adapted some of her TMP ones to suit the redesigns, anticipating her signing on.)

 

[Therin of Andor]

As far as Gene's involvement, I have never heard he was pushed to the side. I have always known he was executive producer and had a final say on what went out. And as far as I am concerned, if you look at the context of the film, the Roddenbery touch is there, elements of humanism and kindness which is absent from Star Trek produced after his death.

Executive Producer of TMP, but not the other films.

As "Creative Consultant", Paramount was contractually obliged to send him all ST movie sequel scripts for his comments (in long memos), but they did not have to listen to one word, much to GR's dismay. GR also reserved the right to remove his on-screen credit, as a signal to fans, as he threatened to do for both ST II and ST III. For ST V, he ended up proclaiming Sybok and McCoy's mercy killing as "apocryphal".

GR communicated with many international fan clubs over the years, sending irregular letters (and a Lincoln Enterprises newsletter) about his feelings about each movie's progress, and announcing his threats to remove his credit.

 

[Maurice]

"Executive Producer" is also a vague term in Hollywood, especially in film v.s TV. "Producer" in TV often means "upper ranked writer". Some E.P.s have less power than the producer. In the case of TMP, Wise was the big name, and I bet what Wise wanted, Wise got.

 

[Forbin]

"Executive Producer" is also a vague term in Hollywood, especially in film v.s TV. "Producer" in TV often means "upper ranked writer". Some E.P.s have less power than the producer. In the case of TMP, Wise was the big name, and I bet what Wise wanted, Wise got.

Sounds like my sister's recent promotion to "executive vice president" at her bank. She's still basically just the CEO's secretary.

 

[twilitezoner]

Star Trek II was made because Star Trek TMP made a boat load of money.

Yeah the critics hated it but lets be honest, how many science fiction movies are actually critically hailed?

 

[Jeyl]

Star Trek II was made because Star Trek TMP made a boat load of money.

True it did make money, but the priority on Star Trek II was how it could be made for LESS money than it took to make TMP. Usually when a big movie makes a lot of money, a sequel is usually given the same budget, if not more. Not the case with TWOK.

So the Wrath of Khan was made with a much smaller budget, a fairly new director, a TV show producer, a cast that wanted to kill their characters, a very new music composer, effects that will literally be lifted from the previous movie and a story that was moderately dark and bittersweet. If I heard of those conditions in the board room, I'd assume this would be a disaster.

 

[Navigator_NCC2120]

I remember reading some where back then (probably Starlog magazine) that after TMP was released and before a sequel was made, Gene Roddenberry wanted creative control of the sequel and Paramount refused to give it to him. So Gene refused to work on the sequel. Also, Paramount was blaming Gene for the high cost of TMP, which included the cost of the aborted "Star Trek: Phase 2" television series, which was unfair to Gene.

Additionally, TMP script was still being developed while they were filming it. Walter Koenig (Chekov) said in his book "Chekov's Enterprise" that they had no third act while they were filming and the script kept changing while they were filming. A stressful situation for the cast and crew, which is probably one of the reasons why the cast hated working on TMP and enjoyed working on TWOK.

It is my understanding it used to be that creative control was had by:
the actors for plays,
the producers for television,
the directors for films.
That may have changed somewhat, as some television actors are now also credited as executive producer so that they have creative control of their character, Tony Shalhoub on the television series "Monk", for example.


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
/\

 

[Herbert1]

According to Susan Sackett, Gene's idea for Star Trek II involved a time travel story and the JFK assassination which Paramount rejected.

 

[Navigator_NCC2120]

According to Susan Sackett, Gene's idea for Star Trek II involved a time travel story and the JFK assassination which Paramount rejected.

Yes, thank you, I know. I think another idea of his was to use the Phase 2 script "Kitumba" as a sequel. However, I still recall reading that Paramount would not give Gene creative control of the sequel so he left.


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
/\

 

[Herbert1]

^Oh, I wasn't aware that Gene also pitched "Kitumba" by John Meredyth Lucas as the basis for Star Trek II. Did the studio reject this pitch as too expensive to produce?

 

[Navigator_NCC2120]

^Oh, I wasn't aware that Gene also pitched "Kitumba" by John Meredyth Lucas as the basis for Star Trek II. Did the studio reject this pitch as too expensive to produce?

Sorry, I don't remember. Perhaps another member will have the answer.


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
/\

 

[Maurice]

I recall reading an interview with Roddenberry post-TMP where he said something about a sequel story that would be about the Klingons and making them less two-dimensional bad-guys. I don't recall every reading anything from a reputable source that said this was "Kitumba" or a variation on it, but it's a logical hypothesis. Maybe someone needs to ask Jon Povill.

 

[Ssosmcin]

True it did make money, but the priority on Star Trek II was how it could be made for LESS money than it took to make TMP. Usually when a big movie makes a lot of money, a sequel is usually given the same budget, if not more. Not the case with TWOK.

This wasn't always the case, although it is common now. The conventional wisdom for a very long time was that sequels make less money than the successful originals. Planet of the Apes, for example, was a huge moneymaker for Fox in 1968. Yet every subsequent film was scaled further and further back, until the last film was nothing more than a "movie of the week."

By the time TMP was done in theaters, it still wasn't the norm to have huge profitable sequels. And when a studio sees a way to maximize profits by lowering the budget, they'll do it. And it worked. TWOK didn't make the same money as TMP, but it was a bigger success.

 

[Maurice]

This wasn't always the case, although it is common now. The conventional wisdom for a very long time was that sequels make less money than the successful originals. Planet of the Apes, for example, was a huge moneymaker for Fox in 1968. Yet every subsequent film was scaled further and further back, until the last film was nothing more than a "movie of the week."

Exactly.

...TWOK didn't make the same money as TMP, but it was a bigger success.

Define "success". If you mean that the return for Paramount was higher than TMP because the investment was smaller, then yes.

 

[scotpens]

"Executive Producer" is also a vague term in Hollywood, especially in film v.s TV. "Producer" in TV often means "upper ranked writer". Some E.P.s have less power than the producer. In the case of TMP, Wise was the big name, and I bet what Wise wanted, Wise got.

Sounds like my sister's recent promotion to "executive vice president" at her bank. She's still basically just the CEO's secretary.

Reminds me of the line from State and Main: "An associate producer credit is what you give to your secretary instead of a raise."