One thing that irked me about the Destiny trilogy. *spoilers inside*

[JarodRussell]

Re: One thing that irked me about the Destiny trilogy. *spoilers insid

Another thing that irked me: why didn't Picard, Riker, or Dax try thinking of more out-of-the-box solutions to deal with the Borg.

Because they're not the characters in Destiny with agency.

Really, they're not. Picard, Riker, and Dax do lots of things in Destiny, but their actions are all in service of moving Erika Hernandez and the Caeliar to a certain point so that the plot can resolve itself. Hernandez is the main character in Destiny, the one whose actions and decisions actually make a difference. The rest are just plot points. The story affects them, but it doesn't revolve around them.

Which would mean in effect that their characters have been reduced from being intelligent, seemingly self-thinking to merely plot-serving. Advanced redshirts, so to speak.
I always found that you really notice when a plot doesn't evolve naturally, when it is plot-point-driven instead of character's-decision-driven. I always cite the example of a badly done horror movie: "This character has to die now, but he has no reason to go into the dark room, it would be really stupid. Therefore he goes anyway."

 

[SicOne]

Re: One thing that irked me about the Destiny trilogy. *spoilers insid

Not having yet looked at the link to earlier thread discussion on the refusal of Geordi to create the thalaron weapon, IIRC he also objected on the grounds that for the Federation to create/use thalaron-based weaponry would give carte blanche for other races to do the same, and open a Pandora's Box of problems.

The existence of the human race was at stake. I was thinking he should build the device and worry about the ramifications of it all later. All the moral angst in the galaxy wasn't gonna save the Federation.

 

[Christopher]

Re: One thing that irked me about the Destiny trilogy. *spoilers insid

The existence of the human race was at stake. I was thinking he should build the device and worry about the ramifications of it all later. All the moral angst in the galaxy wasn't gonna save the Federation.

As I pointed out in the other thread, it wasn't really about the existence of the human race being at stake. That's a misrepresentation of things. At the time Picard proposed developing the thalaron weapon, it was Plan B. They already had a plan underway: use Hernandez to take control of the Borg and convince the Caeliar to deal with them. And that plan actually worked. They never actually needed the thalaron weapon at any point. The only reason Picard proposed it was that he was unable to trust in the main plan, that he was too irrationally terrified of the Borg to believe anything could stop them. (Which means he didn't believe the thalaron weapon would stop them either, so it was really just a futile lashing out.)

 

[Thrawn]

Re: One thing that irked me about the Destiny trilogy. *spoilers insid

LOL, wasn't the point of ProtoAvatar's criticism that exactly that happened? Humans gave up and they only survived because superbeings intervened. If they had asked Q for help, than he would have had a direct, relevant role to play in the story, too.

^Indeed. I acknowledge a number of mistakes and oversights in my online annotations to my various works. And I've seen plenty of other authors do the same.

And, for the record, David Mack actually said that Ezri, Riker, and Picard not having much agency in the climax of the trilogy was definitely one of his weaknesses, and something he wished he'd done better.

 

[vegaslover62]

Re: One thing that irked me about the Destiny trilogy. *spoilers insid

If they had asked Q for help, than he would have had a direct, relevant role to play in the story, too.

Oh, sure. Q appears, snaps his fingers and all their problems go away. Why not make that the solution to every novel?

 

[Christopher]

Re: One thing that irked me about the Destiny trilogy. *spoilers insid

Frankly, as entertaining as John DeLancie was, Q was one of the worst ideas Roddenberry ever had. Not only was it just a lazy rehash of Trelane and other godlike beings, but it's just creatively awkward to give so much power to any being. And given how much importance Roddenberry placed on scientific credibility, his tendency to resort to the trope of beings with godlike mental powers was inconsistent.

Although, to be fair, it worked when Q was an antagonistic figure, someone who had no interest in using his power for our heroes' benefit and was more likely to use it against them. As he became more sympathetic later on, that's when it became a problem storywise. If he considered Picard a "pet" and Janeway a potential romantic interest, why didn't he do more to help them in their darkest hours?

(Although really, for a long time I wasn't convinced that Q was anywhere near as powerful as he claimed. Most of the things he did could've easily been the work of transporters and holodecks and transwarp drives, or equivalent technologies, so his boasts of godly power always struck me as mere bombast. But then in "Deja Q" he instantaneously fixed the orbit of a moon, which requires some serious mojo. And then Amanda Rogers used her nascent Q powers to instantaneously heal an entire ruined ecosystem. So that pretty much proved that the Q do have immense power. Which was underlined by "The Q and the Grey," with the Q civil war setting off supernovae as collateral damage.)

To get back on topic, I have to wonder if maybe the events of Q & A explain why Q didn't get involved with the events of Destiny. Q & A revealed that Q was grooming Picard and his crew for a particular purpose. Once Picard and humanity had served that purpose, maybe Q didn't care what happened to them after that.

 

[JD]

Re: One thing that irked me about the Destiny trilogy. *spoilers insid

Yeah, but I thought he said was still gonna visiting them. So he apparently still was interested in them, even if they'd served their purpose.

 

[pookha]

Re: One thing that irked me about the Destiny trilogy. *spoilers insid

in the past i just assumed that certain events were just to critical for some mysterious reason and q had to keep away.
best of both worlds for instance.
though q did bring to their attention who the mystertious race was that destroyed the sentry outposts in the neutral zone/

 

[Christopher]

Re: One thing that irked me about the Destiny trilogy. *spoilers insid

There's also the explanation that Q has countless other interests throughout the universe and can only devote a finite amount of his attention to our tiny corner of it.

 

[The Rock]

Re: One thing that irked me about the Destiny trilogy. *spoilers insid

Oh, gods, not this again...

Btw Christopher, just wanted to tell you, I really enjoyed your Trek novel "Ex Machina"!

By far one of his best novels. An instant classic.

Absolutely! I haven't been able to read any of Christopher's other novels yet, but after I get done with this third book of Destiny, and then A Singular Destiny, I will be sure to read his post Destiny Titan novel. I am very honored in fact to have him responding in my thread.

Another thing that irked me: why didn't Picard, Riker, or Dax try thinking of more out-of-the-box solutions to deal with the Borg.....such as (yeah, I know some of these sound ridiculous, but hell, I would've tried them):

- Try finding the Nexus and going back into it to time travel

The Nexus allegedly orbits the galaxy every 39.1 years. This is 9 years after GEN, so it'd be nearly a quarter of the way through its "orbit," too far away to reach. (Although the fundamental contradiction there is how it could ever have slowed enough to allow ships to interact with it at all.)

- Try finding getting Wesley Crusher and The Traveler's help to manipulate time

The Travelers have a strict nonintervention policy; they don't meddle with time. Besides, the Caeliar are comparably powerful and they were right there already. If you see a fire in Brooklyn, you call the Brooklyn fire department, not the Istanbul fire department.




The V'Ger/Decker/Ilia entity transcended our dimensional plane 108 years earlier. It no longer exists in the continuum that corporeal beings are capable of reaching. That's like seeing a fire in Brooklyn and trying to call the Alpha Centauri fire department.




Why would the Jem'Hadar be any more effective against the Borg than the combined forces of the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Tholians, Breen, and other Alpha and Beta Quadrant powers? They may be mean, but they're just more of the same, ultimately -- the same conventional brute-force tactics that have always proven futile against the Borg in the long run. The only thing that dragging in the Jem'Hadar would've accomplished would've been the extinction of the Jem'Hadar on top of the extinction of everybody else.

- Maybe getting Species 8472 involved

In the book continuity, there's effectively no way to reach them from our universe; see Myriad Universes: Places of Exile. Also, they only attacked the Borg because their own universe was under assault. They'd have no incentive to fight the Borg if the Borg weren't directly threatening their home.

- And even going so far as to asking for Q's help!

At what cost? Besides, Q wouldn't be so generous. He'd say that this was ultimately our own mess and leave it up to us to clean it up or die trying. At best, he would've dropped some cryptic hints to help Picard and the others crack the riddle.


More basically, of course, it would undermine the drama if the heroes could get out of any bad situation by calling on the aid of superbeings (other than those, such as the Caeliar, who have a direct, relevant role to play in the story).

All great points Christopher! But I guess for the Jem'Hadar thing, I am thinking that the Jem'Hadar would be the best fighters against the Borg because, well, the Jem'Hadar don't fight with much honor. They aren't afraid to fight dirty to get the job done. The Federation and Romulans and Klingons and Cardassians have rules and their own moral code. The Jem'Hadar have none. They are ruthless and absolutely brutal.

 

[Christopher]

Re: One thing that irked me about the Destiny trilogy. *spoilers insid

All great points Christopher! But I guess for the Jem'Hadar thing, I am thinking that the Jem'Hadar would be the best fighters against the Borg because, well, the Jem'Hadar don't fight with much honor. They aren't afraid to fight dirty to get the job done. The Federation and Romulans and Klingons and Cardassians have rules and their own moral code. The Jem'Hadar have none. They are ruthless and absolutely brutal.

Still makes no difference. It's a mistake to think of the Borg as enemy soldiers. Borg drones are cells in a vast, galactic-scale organism. Attacking the Borg Collective with soldiers is like trying to win a knife fight by spraying bacteria on your opponent's hand.

It doesn't matter what tactics the Jem'Hadar use. Tactics are small-scale things, a matter of soldier against soldier or ship against ship. None of that matters to the Borg. It's on too small a scale for them to even notice. They don't care if they lose a few drones or a few cubes. It doesn't hurt them, any more than it hurts you when you shed dead skin cells or hairs. At most, it's an annoyance, like if you break a fingernail or get a paper cut.

It can't be stressed enough that a story about a Borg attack is not a war story. It's a disaster story. It's a story about a force of nature wreaking devastation. Battle tactics, honor, bravery, none of that matters. It doesn't make much difference whether you attack an oncoming hurricane with honorable tactics or brutal ones.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Re: One thing that irked me about the Destiny trilogy. *spoilers insid

There's also the explanation that Q has countless other interests throughout the universe and can only devote a finite amount of his attention to our tiny corner of it.

Based on the fact that Q is the one who introduced Picard to the Borg he should have show up and spent all his time watching and eating popcorn. You'd think a being that powerful would be able to figure out a way to enjoy the show first hand.

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: One thing that irked me about the Destiny trilogy. *spoilers insid

There's also the explanation that Q has countless other interests throughout the universe and can only devote a finite amount of his attention to our tiny corner of it.

Based on the fact that Q is the one who introduced Picard to the Borg he should have show up and spent all his time watching and eating popcorn. You'd think a being that powerful would be able to figure out a way to enjoy the show first hand.

And Q would have a great interest in watching Picard break down, too.

The events in Destiny are actually the climax of the events Q kicked off. Q confronted them with the Borg to show them they are absolutely not ready to face what's out there. And in the end, he was right, because they absolutely needed divine intervention to survive. And Q is the kind of guy to come back and say "I told you so."

 

[chelly]

Re: One thing that irked me about the Destiny trilogy. *spoilers insid

I can picture Q doing just that. (sitting with a bowl of popcorn and watching everyone die). I can't see Q helping them out without something big in return. (and it wouldn't be a good thing). And I don't think anyone would want his help especially since it is his fault that the borg even know who they are.

 

[ares93]

Re: One thing that irked me about the Destiny trilogy. *spoilers insid

I can picture Q doing just that. (sitting with a bowl of popcorn and watching everyone die). I can't see Q helping them out without something big in return. (and it wouldn't be a good thing). And I don't think anyone would want his help especially since it is his fault that the borg even know who they are.

since Christopher already corrected me on this matter, i'll pass along the info. the borg were already sniffing around the romulan border when q introduced picard to our dear collective. so it was only a matter of time, they would have knocked on the federations doorstep anyway.

 

[The Rock]

Re: One thing that irked me about the Destiny trilogy. *spoilers insid

All great points Christopher! But I guess for the Jem'Hadar thing, I am thinking that the Jem'Hadar would be the best fighters against the Borg because, well, the Jem'Hadar don't fight with much honor. They aren't afraid to fight dirty to get the job done. The Federation and Romulans and Klingons and Cardassians have rules and their own moral code. The Jem'Hadar have none. They are ruthless and absolutely brutal.

Still makes no difference. It's a mistake to think of the Borg as enemy soldiers. Borg drones are cells in a vast, galactic-scale organism. Attacking the Borg Collective with soldiers is like trying to win a knife fight by spraying bacteria on your opponent's hand.

It doesn't matter what tactics the Jem'Hadar use. Tactics are small-scale things, a matter of soldier against soldier or ship against ship. None of that matters to the Borg. It's on too small a scale for them to even notice. They don't care if they lose a few drones or a few cubes. It doesn't hurt them, any more than it hurts you when you shed dead skin cells or hairs. At most, it's an annoyance, like if you break a fingernail or get a paper cut.

It can't be stressed enough that a story about a Borg attack is not a war story. It's a disaster story. It's a story about a force of nature wreaking devastation. Battle tactics, honor, bravery, none of that matters. It doesn't make much difference whether you attack an oncoming hurricane with honorable tactics or brutal ones.

Hmmmm, good point.

I can picture Q doing just that. (sitting with a bowl of popcorn and watching everyone die). I can't see Q helping them out without something big in return. (and it wouldn't be a good thing). And I don't think anyone would want his help especially since it is his fault that the borg even know who they are.

since Christopher already corrected me on this matter, i'll pass along the info. the borg were already sniffing around the romulan border when q introduced picard to our dear collective. so it was only a matter of time, they would have knocked on the federations doorstep anyway.

Also, according to the Enterprise episode "Regeneration" the Borg who encountered Archer's crew signaled the Borg in the Delta quadrant in that time, which is what caused the Borg to head to the Alpha quadrant in the first place.

 

[captcalhoun]

Re: One thing that irked me about the Destiny trilogy. *spoilers insid

and going by Regeneration, the ENT episode, they knew about Earth 200 years previously.

posted too late...

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: One thing that irked me about the Destiny trilogy. *spoilers insid

I can picture Q doing just that. (sitting with a bowl of popcorn and watching everyone die). I can't see Q helping them out without something big in return. (and it wouldn't be a good thing). And I don't think anyone would want his help especially since it is his fault that the borg even know who they are.

since Christopher already corrected me on this matter, i'll pass along the info. the borg were already sniffing around the romulan border when q introduced picard to our dear collective. so it was only a matter of time, they would have knocked on the federations doorstep anyway.

Which doesn't change anything about Q's motivation though.

What I also find particularly cringeworthy is the fact that humans created the Borg. So not only are virtually all aliens in the Star Trek galaxy seeded by one humanoid race, the most unusual race of them all basically comes from Earth, too. The mystery of the Borg totally destroyed, in my opinion.

And that the alternate future scenes in VOY: Endgame didn't seem like anything of Destiny happened. So why did Voyager's return cause the events of Destiny?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: One thing that irked me about the Destiny trilogy. *spoilers insid

The TNG Neutral Zone attacks are probably a result of the homing message the Borg sent in 2152.

Also of note in a "humans begat the Borg" way, is the proposed season five Enterprise episode, where Enterprise crewperson Alice Krige was to contact 22nd century Borg and become the Borg Queen.

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: One thing that irked me about the Destiny trilogy. *spoilers insid

Also of note in a "humans begst the Borg" way, is the proposed season five Enterprise episode, where Enterprise crewperson Alice Kreige was to contact 22nd century Borg and become the Borg Queen.

Woof, another good reason to cancel ENT.