One Season too Many?

[RyuRoots]

Definitely not. S7 is probably my favorite season of DS9, followed extremely closely by S6. I thought Dukat's storyline flowed organically throughout the whole show, including his Pah Wraith story which I think got a pretty good shove-off in Waltz. I loved Ezri, S7 has the only MU ep to not suck, and on top of having a lot of oustanding eps in general, the finale and the final arc were fantastic. No, I love how the show finished and there isn't a lot I would change.

My only big beef with S7 is the Ezri/Julian romance which feels PAINFULLY forced. We go from "I love Sarina!" one week to "I love Ezri!" the next with some hollow words about how meaningful it's supposed to be. That it takes so long for them to break up in the novels is a shame.

The revelation that Jadzia supposedly would've gone for Julian if Worf hadn't been there always seemed like bullshit, too. It always seemed that Jadzia liked him as a friend and cared about him but just wasn't interested. They should've just left the damn thing alone. Ezri didn't need to be stuck with someone just because she was female.

 

[TheLobes]

Definitely not. S7 is probably my favorite season of DS9, followed extremely closely by S6. I thought Dukat's storyline flowed organically throughout the whole show, including his Pah Wraith story which I think got a pretty good shove-off in Waltz. I loved Ezri, S7 has the only MU ep to not suck, and on top of having a lot of oustanding eps in general, the finale and the final arc were fantastic. No, I love how the show finished and there isn't a lot I would change.

Haha, Im pretty sure youre my MU counterpart.

 

[TheGodBen]

The thing is, I think a show has the right to be not quite as great in the first season.

Conversely, you can make the case that it's okay for a show to be not quite as great in its sixth or seventh seasons. History teaches us that shows which reach that age are normally in a state of decline, very few shows reach their peak in season 6 or 7 (The Shield being the only exception I can think of). By that time writers are running out of ideas, they begin repeating themselves, or they jump the shark, so the fact that DS9 was still a quality show when it reached that point (as is the opinion of most) is commendable.

Looking at season 1, there are 11 shows I wouldnt mind watch rewatching, in season 7 there are 5.

For me, I wouldn't mind rewatching 10 episodes from season 1 and 19 episodes from season 7. Different strokes, I guess.

 

[RyuRoots]

Definitely not. S7 is probably my favorite season of DS9, followed extremely closely by S6. I thought Dukat's storyline flowed organically throughout the whole show, including his Pah Wraith story which I think got a pretty good shove-off in Waltz. I loved Ezri, S7 has the only MU ep to not suck, and on top of having a lot of oustanding eps in general, the finale and the final arc were fantastic. No, I love how the show finished and there isn't a lot I would change.

Haha, Im pretty sure youre my MU counterpart.

Incidentally, I DO have a beard at the moment.

 

[Jakks]

The seventh season of DS9 had its problems, mainly the whole "Dukat goes to hell" storyline, which I thought was lame. Yet, having said that, I still enjoyed the final season very much.

I thought the wrap up of the Dominion War was fun to watch. I liked how this became an epic storyline that basically ran through the last half of the season.

Sean

I agree, I enjoyed the last season. We really have never got to see the Federation -at war- so it was good for that reason if no other.

 

[sonak]

Definitely not. S7 is probably my favorite season of DS9, followed extremely closely by S6. I thought Dukat's storyline flowed organically throughout the whole show, including his Pah Wraith story which I think got a pretty good shove-off in Waltz. I loved Ezri, S7 has the only MU ep to not suck, and on top of having a lot of oustanding eps in general, the finale and the final arc were fantastic. No, I love how the show finished and there isn't a lot I would change.

My only big beef with S7 is the Ezri/Julian romance which feels PAINFULLY forced. We go from "I love Sarina!" one week to "I love Ezri!" the next with some hollow words about how meaningful it's supposed to be. That it takes so long for them to break up in the novels is a shame.

The revelation that Jadzia supposedly would've gone for Julian if Worf hadn't been there always seemed like bullshit, too. It always seemed that Jadzia liked him as a friend and cared about him but just wasn't interested. They should've just left the damn thing alone. Ezri didn't need to be stuck with someone just because she was female.

Interesting that you thought the Dukat storyline flowed organically throughout DS9's run.

I always thought it went in fits and starts, like they didn't quite know what kind of a person he was.

He goes from cunning, roguish anti-hero in the first few seasons, to almost being on the road to redemption in season 4, to going back to villain but a nuanced, complex one in seasons5-early 6, to one-dimensional cartoonish supervillain in late season 6-season 7.

Apparently this reflected uncertainty about the character among DS9 writers until they settled on him as a straight villain at the end of the show, but I don't consider the way his character developed to be very natural.

 

[Jono]

My only major issue with season seven is adding Ezri as a major character. I would have been more interested in a Dax return for one or two episodes with a Dax that was sure of who she was and that she was going to move on from her relationships with Worf, Sisko and DS9. In a sense a "proper" goodbye to Dax.

With the lack of Dax and more TV time, try to wrap up the war sooner, have Bajor join the Federation in the final episode and wrap up the Prophet's storyline in conjunction to Bajor taking its next step.

As for Dukat I'm fine with here he went.

 

[RyuRoots]

He goes from cunning, roguish anti-hero in the first few seasons, to almost being on the road to redemption in season 4, to going back to villain but a nuanced, complex one in seasons5-early 6, to one-dimensional cartoonish supervillain in late season 6-season 7.

Anti-hero? Dukat was never a hero, he was pretty plainly an antagonist in the first few seasons. I also think he was never "on the road to redemption", just the writers were showing that there are other facets to his personality and that there ARE things he cares about. I also don't understand the "one dimensional villain" complaint since everything he says and does is explained pretty well in Waltz and is consistent with his character; his desire for validation and control, most prominently.

 

[Deckerd]

By this logic, Voyager was seven seasons too many?

How does that work?

It shouldn't have been made. But I just say that because I'm not a fan.

The famous "I don't like it so nobody else can have it" argument. Often thought to be an urban myth but is in fact very much alive.

 

[sonak]

He goes from cunning, roguish anti-hero in the first few seasons, to almost being on the road to redemption in season 4, to going back to villain but a nuanced, complex one in seasons5-early 6, to one-dimensional cartoonish supervillain in late season 6-season 7.

Anti-hero? Dukat was never a hero, he was pretty plainly an antagonist in the first few seasons. I also think he was never "on the road to redemption", just the writers were showing that there are other facets to his personality and that there ARE things he cares about. I also don't understand the "one dimensional villain" complaint since everything he says and does is explained pretty well in Waltz and is consistent with his character; his desire for validation and control, most prominently.

To your first point, you should look up the term "anti-hero." I think early seasons-Dukat fits it well.

"Waltz" was revisionist writing. Dukat's attitude toward Bajorans and his role in the occupation had always been pretty ambivalent. Suddenly in "Waltz" he has a Hitler-esque hatred toward the Bajorans. I guess they figured Trek viewers needed a cartoony supervillain to boo and hiss at.

Really, if you don't see any difference between mid-series run Dukat and season 6-7 Dukat than there's probably not a lot I can say to persuade you.

 

[TheLobes]

Really, if you don't see any difference between mid-series run Dukat and season 6-7 Dukat than there's probably not a lot I can say to persuade you.

Amen. Dukat wasnt a clownish bad guy, although I disagree that he was an anti-hero, since an anti-hero is generally a protagonist. Id say Dukat could be described as an anti-villain. He didnt want to destroy Bajor, or kill people, and he had a moral code. The tragic flaw of Dukat was his ego, he could always persuade himself that he was in the right, and that he would be validated by history, even though he knew some of the things he did were wrong. He said he regreted some of his actions during the occupation, and Im sure he did, but if he had to make the same choice again he'd do the same thing, because his ego is always more important to him than his conscience. Thats what made Dukat an interesting character.

 

[sonak]

Really, if you don't see any difference between mid-series run Dukat and season 6-7 Dukat than there's probably not a lot I can say to persuade you.

Amen. Dukat wasnt a clownish bad guy, although I disagree that he was an anti-hero, since an anti-hero is generally a protagonist. Id say Dukat could be described as an anti-villain. He didnt want to destroy Bajor, or kill people, and he had a moral code. The tragic flaw of Dukat was his ego, he could always persuade himself that he was in the right, and that he would be validated by history, even though he knew some of the things he did were wrong. He said he regreted some of his actions during the occupation, and Im sure he did, but if he had to make the same choice again he'd do the same thing, because his ego is always more important to him than his conscience. Thats what made Dukat an interesting character.

(slaps self in dismay)
Yeeesh, you're right. Anti-villain is much more the concept I was looking for. Anti-villains do bad things but for reasons they think are good, while anti-heroes do good things but out of selfish or flawed motives, right?


At any rate, my failed use of storytelling terms aside, my overall point was that early DS9-Dukat was a very complex character, and not a cardboard-cutout villain. They sabotaged his character because they needed their comic book supervillain for the season seven storyline.

 

[Zeppster]

He goes from cunning, roguish anti-hero in the first few seasons, to almost being on the road to redemption in season 4, to going back to villain but a nuanced, complex one in seasons5-early 6, to one-dimensional cartoonish supervillain in late season 6-season 7.

Anti-hero? Dukat was never a hero, he was pretty plainly an antagonist in the first few seasons. I also think he was never "on the road to redemption", just the writers were showing that there are other facets to his personality and that there ARE things he cares about. I also don't understand the "one dimensional villain" complaint since everything he says and does is explained pretty well in Waltz and is consistent with his character; his desire for validation and control, most prominently.

To your first point, you should look up the term "anti-hero." I think early seasons-Dukat fits it well.

"Waltz" was revisionist writing. Dukat's attitude toward Bajorans and his role in the occupation had always been pretty ambivalent. Suddenly in "Waltz" he has a Hitler-esque hatred toward the Bajorans. I guess they figured Trek viewers needed a cartoony supervillain to boo and hiss at.

Really, if you don't see any difference between mid-series run Dukat and season 6-7 Dukat than there's probably not a lot I can say to persuade you.

Also exactly why did he blame Sisko for the death of his daughter. The reason is never given because Sisko had nothing to do with the death of his daughter yet he blames her for it as a motivation for the entire final season. That Sisko killed his daughter thing was his main motivation for going to the Pah-Wraiths.

 

[RyuRoots]

To your first point, you should look up the term "anti-hero." I think early seasons-Dukat fits it well.

I assure you I know what it means, and Dukat in no way fits it. He had charm and style but was never what I would call an anti-hero. But if YOU need to refresh yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antihero

"Waltz" was revisionist writing. Dukat's attitude toward Bajorans and his role in the occupation had always been pretty ambivalent. Suddenly in "Waltz" he has a Hitler-esque hatred toward the Bajorans. I guess they figured Trek viewers needed a cartoony supervillain to boo and hiss at.

Did you not pay any attention to the dialogue in the episode? That episode explained a complex set of feelings, if anything. A desire to control them while simultaneously demanding their validation. This has been expressed many times through the show, most notably through his surprise at the lack of respect the Bajorans give him. That hate is the result of unjustly stubborn and hateful people in his eyes, and it baffles me how someone can't understand it.

Really, if you don't see any difference between mid-series run Dukat and season 6-7 Dukat than there's probably not a lot I can say to persuade you.

If you see differences that don't exist beyond a character drawing out something that has been present, then there's probably not a lot I can say to persuade you. There IS a change in his character, but it's one that I find to be a logical extension from his preexisting behavior.

 

[sonak]

To your first point, you should look up the term "anti-hero." I think early seasons-Dukat fits it well.

I assure you I know what it means, and Dukat in no way fits it. He had charm and style but was never what I would call an anti-hero. But if YOU need to refresh yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antihero

"Waltz" was revisionist writing. Dukat's attitude toward Bajorans and his role in the occupation had always been pretty ambivalent. Suddenly in "Waltz" he has a Hitler-esque hatred toward the Bajorans. I guess they figured Trek viewers needed a cartoony supervillain to boo and hiss at.

Did you not pay any attention to the dialogue in the episode? That episode explained a complex set of feelings, if anything. A desire to control them while simultaneously demanding their validation. This has been expressed many times through the show, most notably through his surprise at the lack of respect the Bajorans give him. That hate is the result of unjustly stubborn and hateful people in his eyes, and it baffles me how someone can't understand it.

Really, if you don't see any difference between mid-series run Dukat and season 6-7 Dukat than there's probably not a lot I can say to persuade you.

If you see differences that don't exist beyond a character drawing out something that has been present, then there's probably not a lot I can say to persuade you. There IS a change in his character, but it's one that I find to be a logical extension from his preexisting behavior.

To your first point, I already admitted he's more of an anti-villain. I do remember "Waltz," but that's poor evidence for Dukat's motivations since Dukat had already gone nuts and was well into the character assassination-arc by that point.

So I take "Waltz" as the episode where the DS9 writers were like "we need to justify the crap we've been doing with Dukat's character, so here's the episode where we retcon his motivations for the first five years of the show. He's a one-dimensional, racist war criminal. HE ALWAYS WAS. OK? OK?!!!? DO YOU GET IT?"

Evidently you fell for it.

 

[Tulaberry whine]

He goes from cunning, roguish anti-hero in the first few seasons, to almost being on the road to redemption in season 4, to going back to villain but a nuanced, complex one in seasons5-early 6, to one-dimensional cartoonish supervillain in late season 6-season 7.

Anti-hero? Dukat was never a hero, he was pretty plainly an antagonist in the first few seasons. I also think he was never "on the road to redemption", just the writers were showing that there are other facets to his personality and that there ARE things he cares about. I also don't understand the "one dimensional villain" complaint since everything he says and does is explained pretty well in Waltz and is consistent with his character; his desire for validation and control, most prominently.

To your first point, you should look up the term "anti-hero." I think early seasons-Dukat fits it well.

"Waltz" was revisionist writing. Dukat's attitude toward Bajorans and his role in the occupation had always been pretty ambivalent. Suddenly in "Waltz" he has a Hitler-esque hatred toward the Bajorans. I guess they figured Trek viewers needed a cartoony supervillain to boo and hiss at.

I think you're mixing up Dukat's rather messed up image of himself with what we saw onscreen. I mean, we're talking about a man who believes the Occupation was good for the Bajorans (this was established years before Waltz).

"The voice of the new Cardassia – so compassionate, so understanding. Almost makes you forget that five years ago, he was working Bajorans to death in forced labor camps and shooting anybody who tried to stop him! Almost makes you forget."

 

[CobraCommander]

Most tyrants think that what they did was necessary and right. It was probably good for their own interests but it wasn't good for the other guy. On TNG, the Bajorans were introduced as a people who were struggling to survive after decades of suffering. To assume that all of this stopped under Dukat would be a fantasy. Even though he blamed Central Command, he was the commanding officer and was responsible for implementing policy.

What bothered Dukat and Kai Winn about Sisko was their jealousy for him. In their minds, they had worked for the betterment of the Bajorans in their own ways. Their own ways included the killing of opponents and corrupting the minds of their followers. Then comes this Federation officer who is loved and worshipped by the Bajoran people. This drove them insane with pure hate. Sisko just made Dukat see what he truly represented. An agent of evil.

Cobra

 

[CobraCommander]

By the way, I feel that seven seasons was appropriate for the show. There were some early episodes of season seven that felt a little rudderless. I think an eighth season would have been too long. Cobra

 

[sonak]

Anti-hero? Dukat was never a hero, he was pretty plainly an antagonist in the first few seasons. I also think he was never "on the road to redemption", just the writers were showing that there are other facets to his personality and that there ARE things he cares about. I also don't understand the "one dimensional villain" complaint since everything he says and does is explained pretty well in Waltz and is consistent with his character; his desire for validation and control, most prominently.

To your first point, you should look up the term "anti-hero." I think early seasons-Dukat fits it well.

"Waltz" was revisionist writing. Dukat's attitude toward Bajorans and his role in the occupation had always been pretty ambivalent. Suddenly in "Waltz" he has a Hitler-esque hatred toward the Bajorans. I guess they figured Trek viewers needed a cartoony supervillain to boo and hiss at.

I think you're mixing up Dukat's rather messed up image of himself with what we saw onscreen. I mean, we're talking about a man who believes the Occupation was good for the Bajorans (this was established years before Waltz).

"The voice of the new Cardassia – so compassionate, so understanding. Almost makes you forget that five years ago, he was working Bajorans to death in forced labor camps and shooting anybody who tried to stop him! Almost makes you forget."

OK, refer to episodes like "Indiscretion" and "Return to Grace," basically season 4 Dukat, before his big comeback as Dominion ally/puppet in the later part of the series. Now try and reconcile that Dukat with "Waltz" and "Covenant" Gul Dukat. I cannot.

Like I said, I was wrong about the anti-hero thing. However I maintain that they took a complex and well-written character and turned him into a cartoon by the end of the series.

 

[MHT1138]

I don't think the character of Dukat was retconned, but maybe he was simplefied a bit. I also think that the season 7 Dukat who was obsessed with the pahwraiths is not a complete change in character from early seasons Dukat. I could see his character going from one sort of self-delusion to another.

I also really enjoyed season 7, both while I was watching it and now. There are very few episodes of DS9 that I wouldn't watch again.