One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

[EliyahuQeoni]

No because he is claiming it's the Second Doctor with a different face not a regeneration - I can't see it myself.

Yet that would be consistent with what "The War Games" tells us, and it would reflect the way the Doctor's changing face was seen into the early 1980s. Lawrence Miles and Tat Wood devote a sidebar to what exactly is a regeneration in About Time 3 (both editions) in a piece called "When Was Regeneration Invented?" Miles and Wood explain that viewing Hartnell-to-Troughton and Troughton-to-Pertwee as a regeneration like Tennant-to-Smith is a retrospective retcon; it makes sense to call those events "regeneration" in light of later stories, but the terms in which the stories themselves approached the matter aren't similar to the way regenerations are approached later. Hartnell to Troughton was a "rejuvenation" -- the TARDIS made the Doctor younger -- while Pertwee to Baker was a "regeneration" -- every cell in the Doctor's body changed. Troughton to Pertwee, however, is something entirely different than either rejuvenation or regeneration; it's more like extensive plastic surgery to make the Doctor look different. It's not until "The Invasion of Time" that the idea that regeneration is a natural thing Time Lords do takes root, because the series needed to explain why Borusa looked different, and then "Destiny of the Daleks" normalizes it. The idea that the Time Lords did their super surgery on Troughton to make him look like John Hurt and then, once his usefulness was at an end, perform the same surgery to make John Hurt look like Jon Pertwee, is a supportable idea based on "The War Games" and "Spearhead."

Very interesting. I wouldn't be against such a thing, because I do love being able to reconcile changed premises in-universe. But if we assume that Hartnell-to-Troughton was a rejuvenation and Troughton-to-Pertwee was just a change of appearance, how do we address the changes in personality? I suppose rejuvination could effect one's prersonality, personalities change with age. But the Second and Third Doctors have very different personalities (and heights!) How would that be explained?

 

[Allyn Gibson]

But the Second and Third Doctors have very different personalities (and heights!) How would that be explained?

Maybe the Time Lords have Carlos Wu' magical autodoc?

Okay, that's not going to make any sense to anyone who's not up on Larry Niven's Known Space. There's this thing called the autodoc, and it's a coffin-like thing that can heal a person of anything, including beheading. Yes, seriously. Bey Schaeffer got his head chopped off, the head was put in the magical autodoc, and it grew him a new body that was shorter and not an albino.

As for the change in personality, I think that's overblown. It's a facet of the JNT era, but with the first four Doctors I don't really see anything that one would do or behave that the other three would not.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

As for the change in personality, I think that's overblown. It's a facet of the JNT era, but with the first four Doctors I don't really see anything that one would do or behave that the other three would not.

Hmm interesting.. I may have to think on that one for a while before commenting. It seems an odd way of looking at it, but it just may be because I've been conditioned to think of each incarnation as having a different personality, so I'm seeing differences where there aren't any of significance.

 

[DalekJim]

I don't buy it. Pertwee is pretty much the opposite of Troughton in behaviour and mannerisms. One's a hobo, one's trying to be the king of style and class.

 

[JoeZhang]

No because he is claiming it's the Second Doctor with a different face not a regeneration - I can't see it myself.

Yet that would be consistent with what "The War Games" tells us, and it would reflect the way the Doctor's changing face was seen into the early 1980s. Lawrence Miles and Tat Wood devote a sidebar to what exactly is a regeneration in About Time 3 (both editions) in a piece called "When Was Regeneration Invented?" Miles and Wood explain that viewing Hartnell-to-Troughton and Troughton-to-Pertwee as a regeneration like Tennant-to-Smith is a retrospective retcon; it makes sense to call those events "regeneration" in light of later stories, but the terms in which the stories themselves approached the matter aren't similar to the way regenerations are approached later. Hartnell to Troughton was a "rejuvenation" -- the TARDIS made the Doctor younger -- while Pertwee to Baker was a "regeneration" -- every cell in the Doctor's body changed. Troughton to Pertwee, however, is something entirely different than either rejuvenation or regeneration; it's more like extensive plastic surgery to make the Doctor look different. It's not until "The Invasion of Time" that the idea that regeneration is a natural thing Time Lords do takes root, because the series needed to explain why Borusa looked different, and then "Destiny of the Daleks" normalizes it. The idea that the Time Lords did their super surgery on Troughton to make him look like John Hurt and then, once his usefulness was at an end, perform the same surgery to make John Hurt look like Jon Pertwee, is a supportable idea based on "The War Games" and "Spearhead."

But the idea they are the same "individual" (whatever that actually means with timelords) is removed earlier than that - in the Third Doctors.

 

[Gov Kodos]

No because he is claiming it's the Second Doctor with a different face not a regeneration - I can't see it myself.

Yet that would be consistent with what "The War Games" tells us, and it would reflect the way the Doctor's changing face was seen into the early 1980s. Lawrence Miles and Tat Wood devote a sidebar to what exactly is a regeneration in About Time 3 (both editions) in a piece called "When Was Regeneration Invented?" Miles and Wood explain that viewing Hartnell-to-Troughton and Troughton-to-Pertwee as a regeneration like Tennant-to-Smith is a retrospective retcon; it makes sense to call those events "regeneration" in light of later stories, but the terms in which the stories themselves approached the matter aren't similar to the way regenerations are approached later. Hartnell to Troughton was a "rejuvenation" -- the TARDIS made the Doctor younger -- while Pertwee to Baker was a "regeneration" -- every cell in the Doctor's body changed. Troughton to Pertwee, however, is something entirely different than either rejuvenation or regeneration; it's more like extensive plastic surgery to make the Doctor look different. It's not until "The Invasion of Time" that the idea that regeneration is a natural thing Time Lords do takes root, because the series needed to explain why Borusa looked different, and then "Destiny of the Daleks" normalizes it. The idea that the Time Lords did their super surgery on Troughton to make him look like John Hurt and then, once his usefulness was at an end, perform the same surgery to make John Hurt look like Jon Pertwee, is a supportable idea based on "The War Games" and "Spearhead."

But the idea they are the same "individual" (whatever that actually means with timelords) is removed earlier than that - in the Third Doctors.

It seems a long stretch to put John Hurt between Troughton and Pertwee. It would be easier to fit him into Baker's period when he starts to slip off in 'Robot'. He presumably had that adventure on Leela's planet and became known as the evil one. Also, as seen with Romana, Timelords can change bodies shapes during a regeneration period. The Doctor, in his post regeneration delirium becomes the John Hurt Doctor. He does some questionable stuff and returns to Earth as Baker with the guilt and secret of what he'd done on his mind. That seems as likely as a between 2 and 3 Doctor.

 

[JoeZhang]

Doh - tired, of course I meant "The Three Doctors" - which further provides (retrospective) evidence for the idea that they are not the same guy with different faces - "So you're my replacements* — a dandy and a clown!"


* yes I know it's part meta-commentary.

 

[Christopher]

Miles and Wood explain that viewing Hartnell-to-Troughton and Troughton-to-Pertwee as a regeneration like Tennant-to-Smith is a retrospective retcon; it makes sense to call those events "regeneration" in light of later stories, but the terms in which the stories themselves approached the matter aren't similar to the way regenerations are approached later. Hartnell to Troughton was a "rejuvenation" -- the TARDIS made the Doctor younger

Whoever those guys are, they need to do better research. The word actually used in "The Power of the Daleks" was "renewal," not "rejuvenation." (Transcript) There's nothing said about getting younger, just about being renewed. "It's part of the TARDIS. Without it, I couldn't survive."

It's not until "The Invasion of Time" that the idea that regeneration is a natural thing Time Lords do takes root, because the series needed to explain why Borusa looked different, and then "Destiny of the Daleks" normalizes it.

That's completely untrue. From "Planet of the Spiders":

K'ANPO: Indeed. I regenerated and came to Earth, to Tibet.
SARAH: Regenerated?
DOCTOR: Yes. Yes, when a Time Lord's body wears out, he regenerates, becomes new.
K'ANPO: That is why we can live such a long time.

That seems to be the earliest use of the word "regenerate" for the process. And that story featured both K'anpo and the Doctor regenerating (with K'anpo projecting his future regeneration as a seemingly separate individual, perhaps similarly to the Watcher in "Logopolis").

And Borusa first appeared in "The Deadly Assassin," a story that referenced Time Lords as a whole having a standard "regeneration cycle" that was limited to 12 regenerations. (Transcript)

As for the change in personality, I think that's overblown. It's a facet of the JNT era, but with the first four Doctors I don't really see anything that one would do or behave that the other three would not.

I don't buy it. Pertwee is pretty much the opposite of Troughton in behaviour and mannerisms. One's a hobo, one's trying to be the king of style and class.

I agree. The first four Doctors were extremely different from one another in personality, certainly more so than the past three or four have been. And when the first three met, they saw each other as very different people and didn't think much of their other selves.

It would be easier to fit him into Baker's period when he starts to slip off in 'Robot'. He presumably had that adventure on Leela's planet and became known as the evil one. Also, as seen with Romana, Timelords can change bodies shapes during a regeneration period. The Doctor, in his post regeneration delirium becomes the John Hurt Doctor. He does some questionable stuff and returns to Earth as Baker with the guilt and secret of what he'd done on his mind.

The problem there is that "The Evil One" from "The Face of Evil" was clearly shown to have Tom Baker's face. That's why he was recognized as the Evil One when he arrived there later.

 

[JoeZhang]

That's it! The Watcher pulls off his mask to reveal he is John Hurt!*



* not a serious suggestion.

 

[Gov Kodos]

It would be easier to fit him into Baker's period when he starts to slip off in 'Robot'. He presumably had that adventure on Leela's planet and became known as the evil one. Also, as seen with Romana, Timelords can change bodies shapes during a regeneration period. The Doctor, in his post regeneration delirium becomes the John Hurt Doctor. He does some questionable stuff and returns to Earth as Baker with the guilt and secret of what he'd done on his mind.

The problem there is that "The Evil One" from "The Face of Evil" was clearly shown to have Tom Baker's face. That's why he was recognized as the Evil One when he arrived there later.

That's why I mentioned Romana, he could become Hurt, do something worse, and go back to Baker. It's an easier fit that sipping him between Troughton and Pertwee. I don't expect this any more than the 2/3 insertion. Between McGann and Eccleston is far more likely and has a ready made story in the Time War or its fallout.

That's it! The Watcher pulls off his mask to reveal he is John Hurt!*



* not a serious suggestion.

He's the Rani.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

I don't buy it. Pertwee is pretty much the opposite of Troughton in behaviour and mannerisms. One's a hobo, one's trying to be the king of style and class.

I agree. The first four Doctors were extremely different from one another in personality, certainly more so than the past three or four have been. And when the first three met, they saw each other as very different people and didn't think much of their other selves.

I have to say I agree. There is no way that the first four Doctors are simply the same man with a different face. I do like the idea of re-assessing the nature of the changing Doctors, but this just doesn't seem to gel with what is on screen.

 

[timelord1010]

I'd guess like with the Master, the Timelords game the Doctor a extra regeneration (or more) during the Time War and John Hurt was it. The only thing that bothers me is that if Hurt's Doctor did something so bad that the Doctor is keeping his regeneration secret, then why would Tennant's Doctor keep talking about the things he had to do during the Time War?

Also, I think the Time War has been going on much longer than just between the 8th and 9th Doctor's lives. The beginning of the Time War might have been in Genesis of the Daleks when the Time Lords sent the 4th Doctor to Skaro to destroy the Daleks.

On a side note if anything I would have thought the Sontarans would have been a bigger threat to the Time Lords since they were time traveling long before the Daleks and even invaded Gallifrey in Invasion of Time.

 

[Sindatur]

On a side note if anything I would have thought the Sontarans would have been a bigger threat to the Time Lords since they were time traveling long before the Daleks and even invaded Gallifrey in Invasion of Time.

When did we find this out? What I remember is, The Chase had Time Traveling Daleks and The Sontarans weren't even introduced until Late Pertwee. Meaning we'd need a specific reference

 

[Christopher]

Indeed, "The Time Warrior" and "The Two Doctors" indicated that Sontaran time-travel technology was far less advanced than Gallifreyan. The Daleks' time-travel capability was more advanced.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Whoever those guys are, they need to do better research.

You should argue with the essay, not my summary of it. Miles and Wood address every objection you've made.

 

[DalekJim]

Whoever those guys are, they need to do better research.

If you don't know who Lawrence Miles and Tat Wood are, then you need to do better research. Preferably from a non-Wikipedia source.

 

[Christopher]

^Since I wasn't making a claim about them, I didn't have to research who they were. And however famous they may be, the fact remains that their claim about what was stated in "The Power of the Daleks" (or Allyn's secondhand description of it) was inaccurate. I did provide my sources and evidence for the points I was actually making.

 

[Atticus]

^Since I wasn't making a claim about them, I didn't have to research who they were.

That aside, if you really haven't come across them before, and are at all interested in Who criticism, you really should make the time to look them up. Their About Time series is just about the most intelligent, insightful and challenging analysis of the series you will find, while Miles's Who novels are, for the most part, extraordinary, even after all these years. It's a cliche within fan circles to say it but Alien Bodies really does have a strong claim to being the finest DW story of them all, in any medium.

 

[Christopher]

^But if they're so insightful, why would they think that regeneration wasn't established as normal for Time Lords until "The Invasion of Time" when it was actually established four years earlier? Or was Allyn simply misremembering their essay?

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

^But if they're so insightful, why would they think that regeneration wasn't established as normal for Time Lords until "The Invasion of Time" when it was actually established four years earlier? Or was Allyn simply misremembering their essay?

Maybe they made a mistake? Those things are known to happen.