One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

[Christopher]

Just based on what Patrick Troughton said, it doesn't even seem clear that any pre-Doctor Doctor left Galifrey. It sounds like he was the first to left and he left because he was bored and because he wanted to help people.

But the Doctor didn't originally have any agenda of helping people. When we first met him, he was an antihero at best, a self-centered and arrogant individual. In "An Unearthly Child," he even attempted to murder a prehistoric human in order to escape and get back to the TARDIS. It was the example set by Ian and Barbara, their determination to help people on their travels, that softened his heart and awoke his potential for activism. (Although by now there are probably a number of novels and short stories that show him as more of a do-gooder before that day in Totters Lane.)

 

[chelly]

"It's not who I am that matters. It's what I do."

I just remembered what River said at Demon's run about what the meaning of Doctor is or can be. I wonder if there is a correlation there.

I am sorry if someone already came up with that, I may have missed it in the 3 pages of this thread.

 

[Mr Awe]

I just rewatched The Fires of Pompeii and realized that we've been through all of this before. In that story, the Doctor has to sacrifice 30,000 innocent people in order to save the world. It's set up as an explicit either/or decision.

It sounds like if the common Time War theory is correct, that it's this basic scenario but amped up to a universal scale! The Doctor didn't seem to troubled over this decision, a bit, but not nearly as much as Donna.

Mr Awe

 

[Redfern]

Thanks for empahsizing that point, Christopher. I wanted to state something similar, but you stated better than I could have done. We start to see a shift by the conclusion of part 2 of "The Edge of Destruction". At least he acknowledges Barbara and Ian are not "dead weight". I have not examined what survives of "Marco Polo", so I have to ask; does he become more involved in that story, or is it later?

So taking those aspects into account, the Doctor does not leave Gallifrey to "save the universe". That came later. He "fled" (though he claims 'exile' in the earliest serials).

Sincerely,

Bill

 

[Sindatur]

Just based on what Patrick Troughton said, it doesn't even seem clear that any pre-Doctor Doctor left Galifrey. It sounds like he was the first to left and he left because he was bored and because he wanted to help people.

If that's in reply to post, why would my scenario require Pre-Hartnell Doctor to leave Gallifrey?

 

[JoeZhang]

Why not? The Pre-Hartnell Doctor, may have decided to change his horrible ways and even gave himself a new name of The Doctor, in order to celebrate that change and then he failed to keep that promise and did something he felt was necessary but was viewed as horrible and unforgivable by the future incarnations

But that doesn't work because of how the line is actually delivered - it's promise broken *after* he adopts the name of the Doctor.

 

[Sindatur]

Why not? The Pre-Hartnell Doctor, may have decided to change his horrible ways and even gave himself a new name of The Doctor, in order to celebrate that change and then he failed to keep that promise and did something he felt was necessary but was viewed as horrible and unforgivable by the future incarnations

But that doesn't work because of how the line is actually delivered - it's promise broken *after* he adopts the name of the Doctor.

And...?

Say he is originally a horrible person. He decides to change himself, and celebrates that change with dubbing himself The Doctor. Then he falls back into old habits and becomes even worse, after he has adopted the name to celebrate his change. That would be breaking the promise, just as much as if Hartnell or Pertwee or Eccelston broke the promise, in fact, if the Pre-Hartnell incarnation both made the promise and took on the mantle of the Doctor, and then broke the promise the name implies, then he would be breaking it even moreso then if a future incarnation did so.

 

[Tom]

Well here are our logical choices:

1. Pre-Hartnell Doctor
2. Pre-Pertwee doctor, maybe Season 6b does live on. LOL
3. Pre-Ecc Doctor (thus, the time war Doctor)
4. Future Doctor
5. 10's clone grown old
6. Amalgamation (think watcher, valeyard, dreamlord, etc..) of the Doctor.

Pretty sure we can rule 1 and 4 out based on the dialog, 5 would not really make a whole lot of sense, and 6 would not make that much sense in the context of things. 2 is possible but unlikely, 3 seems to be the best option IMO.

 

[Chrono85]

I would have to agree that it seems unlikely that the writers would choose to make any incarnation of the Doctor 'evil' at least not in the same way as The Master.

 

[JoeZhang]

But if you are try to keep this terrible secret why are you going to do it using the name that you did the terrible thing under - is that the whole point of Smith's Doctor saying he wasn't known by that name - to give the writers an out when people ask how the Doctor did something terrible and nobody already knows - because he didn't use that name when he did it.

 

[Christopher]

^True, the idea was evidently that they can get away with having another incarnation of this particular Time Lord without adding to the known number of Doctors because he wasn't "the Doctor" in that incarnation. Although they immediately undermined that idea with the caption "Starring John Hurt as The Doctor." (And isn't that the clunkiest way ever to do a cliffhanger reveal -- just spell it out in a caption?)

 

[Tom]

Also, it will bring up the whole argument that when Smith regenerates is that the 'last' one. Obviously something would happen to give him more lives, but still.

 

[RoJoHen]

(And isn't that the clunkiest way ever to do a cliffhanger reveal -- just spell it out in a caption?)

I actually thought it was awesome. It completely threw me off and got me saying, "Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?!"

Which is what a cliffhanger is supposed to do.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Just based on what Patrick Troughton said, it doesn't even seem clear that any pre-Doctor Doctor left Galifrey. It sounds like he was the first to left and he left because he was bored and because he wanted to help people.

But the Doctor didn't originally have any agenda of helping people. When we first met him, he was an antihero at best, a self-centered and arrogant individual. In "An Unearthly Child," he even attempted to murder a prehistoric human in order to escape and get back to the TARDIS. It was the example set by Ian and Barbara, their determination to help people on their travels, that softened his heart and awoke his potential for activism. (Although by now there are probably a number of novels and short stories that show him as more of a do-gooder before that day in Totters Lane.)

True, I technically combined two separate things.

He said he left because he was bored. Then he said the Time Lords don't approve of intervention. Either way, the brief scene between the Doctor and Clara that shows which Doctor stole the TARDIS shows you when he left.

 

[The Wormhole]

Also, it will bring up the whole argument that when Smith regenerates is that the 'last' one. Obviously something would happen to give him more lives, but still.

Hell, the whole argument could already be a moot point if we assume the other faces in The Brain of Morbius are pre-Hartnell incarnations that didn't call themselves the Doctor.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Well, the regeneration count still matters.

 

[Photoman15]

Well, the regeneration count still matters.

No it doesn't.
One, it is a reference to something 30 or so years ago.
Two, it seems it was self/timelord imposed, since they can bring back people who are past their shelf life (The Master for example). Once the Timelords are gone, as they are now, there may not be any limit. We don't know. yet.....

 

[Venardhi]

The regeneration count matters because it gives them a good storyline to pursue in a few years. In fact, it would be pretty awesome if 12 has to battle a 10.5 gone mad/evil who steals his last regeneration and turns into the Valeyard, bringing that storyline to a head sooner than later and resolves the regeneration issue without ignoring it or hand-waving it away.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Yeah, I don't think it's relevant because it means the end of the show, but I do think it's something they'll address as part of the story. It's not just relevant for the last life of the Doctor, it's relevant for the Valeyard (who was just mentioned so it's not like you can say it was 30 years ago).

 

[Christopher]

Good point about the Valeyard just having been mentioned in "The Name of the Doctor." It occurs to me that if Moffat put in all those lines about the darkness of what the Doctor becomes toward the end of his life, and told a story that focused our attention toward his future and his ultimate fate, that might support the idea that Hurt represents something from the Doctor's future, whether the Valeyard or something else. (And yes, the Doctor speaks of that incarnation in the past tense, but he's a time traveler. He spoke of his own eventual death and entombment in the past tense too.)