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On Ship Design Longevity

I wouldn't be so sure that Worf was picking up a combination of Thoron fields and Duranium shadows when he scanned the Scimitar.

My theory on that ship is that the Remans simply maximized the capabilities of existing technologies by using combinations of techniques that resembled ones discovered by our heroes in 'one shot then forgotten tech' episodes.

Starfleet is not the only organization to explore strange new worlds or make contact with other civilizations.
Other powers in the Alpha/Beta quadrants will do it as well, albeit in their own ways.

Their existing tech is capable of so much more, yet the writers never fully utilized it for 'dramatic reasons', which was idiotic because they could have conjured up just as dramatic episodes that required the use of all that tech to begin with.
 
The thing is, you'd have to have some shielding even when cloaked. After all the Nav-Deflector sweeps stuff out of the way and keeps small things from hitting into the vessel's hull. A small amount of shielding would also be necessary too probably.

Maybe you'd have less shielding cloaked than uncloaked, but still.
 
It's no doubt possible to seek all sorts of compromises while under cloak. Careful Romulans might power down everything, whisper their commands, and (quietly) execute anybody who flushes the toilet or forgets to mute his communicator's call tune. They'd also streamline the system so that whenever the cloak is activated, shields and weapons automatically go down. Cocksure Klingons might keep shields at 50% and weapons at preheat, or shields down but weapons ready-to-fire, depending on the type of opponent, and would trust that their prey would not have time to react despite the only 50% effective cloak. Cunning Xyrillians might keep engines at full power so that they can quickly run away if their "Oh, we're so helpless, please send a stud of an engineer across to assist us!" ploy backfires. Tactics would decide whether a perfect cloak, or a less than perfect cloak combined with an increased state of readiness, would be preferable.

The "power level" issue isn't really an issue at all since it doesn't necessarily require any power to launch a torpedo

It might be relevant with regard of all other types of Trek weapon, though.

And there might be a tactical disadvantage to using a silent "swim-out" launch for a torpedo. No doubt this mode of release was used when Chang's BoP fired at Kronos 1, or else a simple camera would have revealed that the torpedoes came from the floating head of a mostly but not completely invisible Klingon ship. But this mode explicitly wasn't used any more when Chang fired at the Enterprise - perhaps suggesting that Chang no longer wanted to fight from a disadvantaged position. The powered kicking out of a torpedo, with the associated flash, might be relevant to the odds of the hit; perhaps swim-out torps don't have enough initial speed and can be dodged?

Of course it should be possible to build weapons that can be fired without compromising the cloak at all, such as those swim-out torps. But the fact that these haven't been built yet might suggest that they aren't worth the trouble - that semi-invisible ships are better weapons of war than invisible ones. Chang's BoP could have been akin to an assassin's silenced pistol: good for "special government work", but suicidally inefficient in battling an alerted Starfleet heavy cruiser, an opponent akin to an assault rifle -toting infantryman.

Timo Saloniemi
 
And there might be a tactical disadvantage to using a silent "swim-out" launch for a torpedo. No doubt this mode of release was used when Chang's BoP fired at Kronos 1, or else a simple camera would have revealed that the torpedoes came from the floating head of a mostly but not completely invisible Klingon ship. But this mode explicitly wasn't used any more when Chang fired at the Enterprise - perhaps suggesting that Chang no longer wanted to fight from a disadvantaged position. The powered kicking out of a torpedo, with the associated flash, might be relevant to the odds of the hit; perhaps swim-out torps don't have enough initial speed and can be dodged?
Possible, but then Kirk never managed to return fire on the Bird of Prey all the while chang was shooting at him. Neither did Excelsior, for that matter.
 
Starfleet targeting systems might have improved by the TNG era, though, making such "peekaboo" attacks impractical. Kirk could not fire back at Chang, but Picard might have been able to do that.

So TNG era cloaked attackers would have to either develop cloaks that don't drop at all, or then devise tactics that allow for the fact that the enemy can fire back. If shields and cloaks are largely incompatible, then dropping the cloak and raising the shield is a good idea in the TNG era where the victim can fire back at you...

Timo Saloniemi
 
We know Voyager had the most advanced sensors in the Fleet upon it's launch.
It proved to superior to the Galaxy Class Starship which took an hour to scan a lightyear Dia. of space.

Voyager Scan for the Cochrane in all directions up to 15 lightyears. With it's advance sensor package I fully expect that it has the best targeting sensors.

But we also know that Defiant could not read what ship was decloaking in Rules of Engagement but they knew it was decloaking before it fully appeared. Defiant had enough time to close and destroy it before it ever fully decloaked.
 
or else a simple camera would have revealed that the torpedoes came from the floating head of a mostly but not completely invisible Klingon ship.

When Chang was firing his torpedoes, the launch would disrupt the ship's cloak, but it would be exposed only in a narrow portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. The Bird of Prey was revealed in the visual spectrum briefly, but nothing else was radiating so the Enterprise's targeting scanner couldn't lock on.

Going back a few posts, to find something to compare the Defiant to maybe we need to look at a non naval vessel. I think the Defiant might be like a WWII heavy fighter/bomber destroyer like the Lockheed P-38 Lightning. Obviously the Defiant has a crew of more than one, but in terms of the role she plays as a interceptor-escort that posseses heavy armament and long range with lots of maneuverability the Defiant is more like an aircraft than a naval destroyer.
 
Actually, I think Defiant is a closer match to the A-10 Warthog with a heavier AA role. If, say, you found a way to mount some medium range missiles on an A-10 and use the giant 30mm cannon to shoot down other aircraft.
 
The Bird of Prey was revealed in the visual spectrum briefly, but nothing else was radiating so the Enterprise's targeting scanner couldn't lock on.

Why would the visual spectrum be more difficult to lock onto than, say, radio waves or delta rays or neutron emissions?

I'd rather think that visual EM would be one of the very best signals for a targeting system to track. This kind of signal has its wavelength in the same order of magnitude as the fine detail on the surface of the ship, so one can aim at weapons or engines specifically; one couldn't do that with radio waves that are twenty meters long. The signal is also fairly constant, not variable like heat emissions or warp engine signature or other such things that depend on the internal processes of the target. And it's very distinct against the darkness of a starry sky.

The downside would be low intensity, as visual EM emissions would largely be passive ones, from the reflected light of an exterior light source. But the method of tracking could be wholly passive, giving the attacker a tactical advantage as the defender would not be alerted.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Actually, I think Defiant is a closer match to the A-10 Warthog with a heavier AA role. If, say, you found a way to mount some medium range missiles on an A-10 and use the giant 30mm cannon to shoot down other aircraft.

I would concur with that. Maneuverable, Powerful Tank Buster Gun and a array of missiles and expandable.
 
And agile and slow. But then we'd probably have to define all other starships as something akin to B-52 or Tu-95: big and less than agile flying fortresses with multiple gun turret for defense, and with even bigger missiles for making big bangs at a distance. Except that they'd also carry some armor, and be quite a bit faster than the A-10 at cruise.

Timo Saloniemi
 
If you were behind the BoP at the moment it launched a torpedo, would the head/bow be revealed? From above, abeam or any angle except the foreward quarter, would the torpedo just suddenly appear?
 
The Bird of Prey was revealed in the visual spectrum briefly, but nothing else was radiating so the Enterprise's targeting scanner couldn't lock on.

Why would the visual spectrum be more difficult to lock onto than, say, radio waves or delta rays or neutron emissions?
Because the visual spectrum is usually used in passive detection; a targeting scanner will invariably use an active device with an EM beam from one ship bouncing off the target to determine precise distance and movement. Active systems in the visual spectrums include lidar and laser-guidance, the latter of which requires a target to be pinpointed in the first place and the former which has slightly shorter range than radar.

I'd rather think that visual EM would be one of the very best signals for a targeting system to track. This kind of signal has its wavelength in the same order of magnitude as the fine detail on the surface of the ship, so one can aim at weapons or engines specifically; one couldn't do that with radio waves that are twenty meters long.
Not all radio waves have the same length, which is precisely why certain radars (S-band IIRC) are used for targeting small targets like, say, antiship missiles and incoming shells while lower-frequency radars are used for surface search where they're looking for incoming ships. For a number of reasons, the higher the radar frequency, the harder it is to detect objects at a distance.
 
a targeting scanner will invariably use an active device with an EM beam from one ship bouncing off the target to determine precise distance and movement.

Why would such an inferior technique be chosen? It makes the attacker known and thus vulnerable. Its ranging function can be fooled just as easily as that of a passive technique, by applying suitable countermeasures - but at least a passive technique has the chance of catching the target off guard.

A visual sighting of a BoP bow should give range unambiguously and quickly: just scale the known dimensions to get the distance. Parallax would reveal the distance of an object of unknown dimensions.

Not all radio waves have the same length

But the ones with ideal length for targeting would be visual EM or close to it, by definition. And visual EM is the one thing a Star Trek battle scene would have in consistent abundance, for passive observation. A star lighting the battlefield would give unambiguous reflections in the visual range, whereas IR reflections would get confused with the multiple IR sources present in the battle; radio range would be too fuzzy; and anything shorter than EUV would suffer from lack of passive radiation to be reflected from the targets, plus might be confused with emissions from the high energy devices aboard the ships.

We like to rely on visual EM because our environs and bodies both favor it (the atmosphere makes UV and IR less practical, and nothing else down the energy range gives the necessary precision while nothing else up the range is biologically detectable). But even in the space environment, visual EM is a hunter's tool. And even if one doesn't use it for one's primary targeting needs, it's a perfectly good backup that can pinpoint "visually leaking" cloakships with ease and guide one's weapons to a kill. All one needs is a good brain to do visual analysis; radars and other active designs are preferred today because our primitive, imaging-incapable computers can make use of their simplistic output, but if that limitation is removed, then radars become much less desirable a crutch.

Timo Saloniemi
 
a targeting scanner will invariably use an active device with an EM beam from one ship bouncing off the target to determine precise distance and movement.

Why would such an inferior technique be chosen? It makes the attacker known and thus vulnerable.
When in the history of Star Trek has this EVER been an issue in combat? Only rarely--and I dare say NEVER--has an attacking ship ever locked onto another vessel that didn't already know it was there. Usually the guide beam for their weapons is the LAST thing their sensors pick up; by the time you're close enough to attack they've analyzed your ship already with enough detail to know the exact moment you begin to power up your weapons in the first place.

Anyway, the precise answer to the question is that PASSIVE sensors are not accurate enough to provide a totally accurate firing solution. Torpedoes might be able to home in on passive emissions, sure, but only if they're fired at close enough range that they don't actually need to "lock on" to the target before being fired; purely fire-and-forget weapons (like Spock's modified torpedo) are inherently close-range weapons.

A visual sighting of a BoP bow should give range unambiguously and quickly: just scale the known dimensions to get the distance.
Assuming you're looking directly at it the moment it fires a torpedo, and in this case you wouldn't be. Besides the fact that that brief sighting gives you the distance from where it was when it fired; it can't give you accurate heading and relative velocity, nor can it compensate for sudden course changes and evasive maneuvers.

Which means that even if it were theoretically possible to target such a vessel under those circumstances, doing so is OBVIOUSLY beyond even the Excelsior and Enterprise' combined capabilities; even the Enterprise-E found this difficult enough against the Scimitar.

Not all radio waves have the same length

But the ones with ideal length for targeting would be visual EM or close to it, by definition.
Hardly "by definition." Naval vessels already use radio waves for target acquisition anyway; visual spectrum guidance (i.e. image recognition technology) is already less reliable than radar guidance for a variety of reasons.

Additionally, REAL sensor surveys of Earth orbital space are already capable of tracking shoebox-sized objects with impressive precision, so your assessment of the limits of radio waves seems to be misinformed.
 
Only rarely--and I dare say NEVER--has an attacking ship ever locked onto another vessel that didn't already know it was there.

Yet the victim can always tell that "They have locked weapons on us!". He shouldn't.

Obviously, active targeting is in use in Trek. But that doesn't mean passive targeting wouldn't work, or that it shouldn't be used...

PASSIVE sensors are not accurate enough to provide a totally accurate firing solution.

Why not? There shouldn't be any physical mechanism that would make them inferior.

purely fire-and-forget weapons (like Spock's modified torpedo) are inherently close-range weapons.

Hardly. Indeed, if the range is long, that's where terminal guidance becomes the most urgently needed... Typically, an anti-aircraft missile might be fired at a target half a Siberia away, on inertial guidance, and would then use radar at the destination to compensate for the target's evasive action.

Assuming you're looking directly at it the moment it fires a torpedo, and in this case you wouldn't be.

Why not? Surely a starship is directly looking everywhere all the time.

Besides the fact that that brief sighting gives you the distance from where it was when it fired; it can't give you accurate heading and relative velocity, nor can it compensate for sudden course changes and evasive maneuvers.

There would be no difference between passive and active sensors in this respect. So it's just a matter of how quickly your weapons can react to the cues given by the targeting system. In the 23rd century, obviously not quickly enough...

(Incidentally, one wonders how much Kirk's failure to blind-fire his phasers against Chang was due to the fact that there was a planet nearby. Blind ranging shots might be rather counterproductive if they killed the UFP President or the Klingon Chancellor. Just musing...)

Hardly "by definition."

Well, EM is EM. Only wavelength matters. That, and the fact that in the visual range and close to it, there are external sources of EM so passive sensors can work even when the target is being wewy wewy quiet.

Naval vessels already use radio waves for target acquisition anyway

True, but they won't be able to target the gun turrets or the missile launchers specifically that way. An imaging microwave radar would allow them to do that, but very few weapons so far use microwave radars that way. Imaging IR is a more popular way, and essentially means passive visual EM, but even there the technology is not yet in practical use. Targeting of specific parts of a warship simply isn't desirable today, as opposed to Star Trek.

visual spectrum guidance (i.e. image recognition technology) is already less reliable than radar guidance for a variety of reasons.

"Already"? I'd say "still". Image recognition is a matter of getting better computers to better utilize the inherently superior qualities of the short wavelength ranges...

Additionally, REAL sensor surveys of Earth orbital space are already capable of tracking shoebox-sized objects with impressive precision, so your assessment of the limits of radio waves seems to be misinformed.

To be sure, much of that tracking is in fact done by passive visual EM. :vulcan:

And it's a matter of tracking objects against nothingness. A technique that's good enough for that doesn't necessarily allow one to target the enemy's phaser banks, which was the big point in favor of passive visual EM.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Only rarely--and I dare say NEVER--has an attacking ship ever locked onto another vessel that didn't already know it was there.

Yet the victim can always tell that "They have locked weapons on us!". He shouldn't.

Obviously, active targeting is in use in Trek. But that doesn't mean passive targeting wouldn't work, or that it shouldn't be used...
If you can identify a situation in the entirety of Star Trek where passive targeting would have been in any way advantageous, you would have a point. As it stands, the only one that comes to mind is Worf "manually" aiming the Bortas' disruptors in "Redemption pt1" so the Duras ships won't have time to re-raise their shields; you could call this an example of passive targeting, but the implication is that manual targeting is difficult enough that only Worf is good enough to pull it off.

The active beam gives you PRECISE measurements of the enemy's course and speed while passive targeting can only give estimates, with the weapons officer having to make up the difference.

For the same reason you can't accurately measure things with a ruler that has no tick marks. An active sensor can control variables like doppler shift and polarity, and besides that can send out a sufficiently strong signal that can separate a positive return from noise. Passive detection has alot of variables your computer can't completely eliminate, and the signal input is weak enough that noise has to be factored in too.

Really, it's the difference between eaves dropping on a conversation and asking someone a direct question. You can only extract so much information from listening in the background.

Hardly. Indeed, if the range is long, that's where terminal guidance becomes the most urgently needed... Typically, an anti-aircraft missile might be fired at a target half a Siberia away, on inertial guidance, and would then use radar at the destination to compensate for the target's evasive action.
Which isn't a purely fire-and-forget weapon, especially against a moving target. Modern anti-ship missiles require midcourse correction at those extended ranges; in fire-and-forget mode, most of them have MUCH shorter ranges.

Becuse an omnidirectional lens can see everything, but cannot analyze anything; in that kind of broad-field scan it shows up simply as an anomalous flash of light from which little other information can be obtained; if you want to actually identify the thing as a Klingon bird of prey, that requires actually focussing on that portion of the field enough to resolve fine details; you have to look directly at it.

Infinite focus in infinite directions is a type of sensory omniscience which starships have never consistently demonstrated; the inconsistency (where they sometimes DO seem to see everything around them, no matter how small) can be interpreted as some such system "getting lucky" with random searches of a particular narrow quadrant at the exact moment a phenomenon happens to appear.

There would be no difference between passive and active sensors in this respect. So it's just a matter of how quickly your weapons can react to the cues given by the targeting system.
Indeed. The problem is a passive targeting system wouldn't give you those clues even if he was visible; your tactical office would have to take a guess and hope he hits him.

Well, EM is EM. Only wavelength matters.
Not really. Depending on the materials you have available, some frequencies are easier to focus than others, and are therefore much more useful at a specific range or for a specific purpose. LIDAR and milimeter-wave radars give you much finer returns, so can give you a hyper-accurate targeting solution. But they're not very useful in a wide-field search for precisely this reason: the thing your looking for has to be MUCH larger for you to pick it out of the usual signal noise. A "blurry" image produced by a longer wavelength radar makes it easier to get a nonspecific "there's something out there" reading and then focus your more precise sensors on that spot.

Visual can be useful for targeting, but at a long enough range you wind up mounting the Hubble Telescope to your phaser emitters just to target the enemy.

That, and the fact that in the visual range and close to it, there are external sources of EM so passive sensors can work even when the target is being wewy wewy quiet.
Infrared doesn't need an external source, and neither do some microwave frequencies.

True, but they won't be able to target the gun turrets or the missile launchers specifically that way. An imaging microwave radar would allow them to do that, but very few weapons so far use microwave radars that way.
Some versions of the Hellfire use milimeter-wave radar to target tanks and ground vehicles.

Imaging IR is a more popular way, and essentially means passive visual EM,
No, IN PRACTICE it means manually designating a specific aiming point and then painting a target on that aiming point with a laser beam; you then fire a small missile programmed to home in on the reflection from that laser beam and blow the crap out of it. This is called "semi-active" since the active portion of the lock is coming from the launcher, not the weapon itself.

visual spectrum guidance (i.e. image recognition technology) is already less reliable than radar guidance for a variety of reasons.

"Already"? I'd say "still". Image recognition is a matter of getting better computers to better utilize the inherently superior qualities of the short wavelength ranges...
It didn't used to be. The first reliable ground-attack missiles used IMRC guidance to track targets using an eliminate-the-difference algorithm, and the most reliable anti-aircraft missile for many years was the IR-guided Sidewinder. The famous Maverick missile now uses infrared, as does the Walleye bomb. The TLAM Tomhawk used image recognition and image scanning for guidance as well as targeting.

All of these systems have become less accurate than missiles using millimeter-wave and microwave frequencies, which have a much better signal to noise ratio and are harder to confuse with camouflage and evasive action.

To be sure, much of that tracking is in fact done by passive visual EM. :vulcan:
Of asteroids, sure. Space debris, not so much; the many thousands of objects tracked on a day to day basis are invariably monitored by radar stations, not telescopes.

And it's a matter of tracking objects against nothingness. A technique that's good enough for that doesn't necessarily allow one to target the enemy's phaser banks, which was the big point in favor of passive visual EM.
This assumes you can be sure that you know what the enemy's phaser banks look like, and that isn't always a given. It also assumes that your passive scan can provide pinpoint accuracy on the position of the enemy ship, let alone a particular aiming point on that ship; again, it usually can't, which is the entire purpose of using phaser locks in the first place. You paint a target on your enemy exactly where you want the shot to go; you can't miss. If this isn't an option, you can MANUALLY aim the weapons to hit a particular target, and while this is entirely possible (sharpshooters have been doing it for 3000 years) it can't be done by computer.
 
If you can identify a situation in the entirety of Star Trek where passive targeting would have been in any way advantageous, you would have a point.

You mention Worf ambushing the incoming Klingon rebels. That's a perfect scenario for Star Trek, because more often than not, two ships approach each other to point blank range and begin ramping up the testosterone. If one can gain the advantage of surprise there, one is decidedly better off.

Sulu was able to target Khan surreptitiously in ST2, in a situation where alerting the enemy would have meant instant death (no shields on the Enterprise). Just moments before, Khan had been able to hit our heroes since they were too slow to raise shields: "Locking weapons on us!" -> "Shields!" -> "They already hurt us!" is how these things normally seem to go; if one eliminates even that little bit of advance warning, one is likely to win battles hands down.

Becuse an omnidirectional lens can see everything, but cannot analyze anything

That's a completely bogus argument. Simply use a thousand lenses. Or, more probably, lenseless optics. The powers of analysis are merely dependent on computing power, of which there'd be plenty.

Indeed. The problem is a passive targeting system wouldn't give you those clues even if he was visible; your tactical office would have to take a guess and hope he hits him.

What couldn't a passive system give? Distance? It can; just do parallax. Everything else it's likely to give better than an active system, as long as there's a source of illumination either aboard the target or nearby. If there isn't, well, you can choose a type of illumination that best complements your passive system and least helps the enemy. Less is more.

Infrared doesn't need an external source, and neither do some microwave frequencies.

In Trek, that might not be true; a "quiet" ship might be able to channel those away from you...

Some versions of the Hellfire use milimeter-wave radar to target tanks and ground vehicles.

Not imaging ones, though.

No, IN PRACTICE it means manually designating a specific aiming point and then painting a target on that aiming point with a laser beam; you then fire a small missile programmed to home in on the reflection from that laser beam and blow the crap out of it. This is called "semi-active" since the active portion of the lock is coming from the launcher, not the weapon itself.

That's not what imaging IR is. Sure, it can be used as a laser seeker, but IIR homing in, say, modern AAMs is really a passive image analysis technique, taking a look at a heat scene and sorting out the desired signature from there.

All of these systems have become less accurate than missiles using millimeter-wave and microwave frequencies, which have a much better signal to noise ratio and are harder to confuse with camouflage and evasive action.

A trend that can be reversed with the use of better image interpreting software... And the point is that MMW can never be a passive technique, hence you can only use it for targeting if you don't fear dying (a Hellfire wouldn't).

This assumes you can be sure that you know what the enemy's phaser banks look like, and that isn't always a given.

In Trek, though, it more or less is.

It also assumes that your passive scan can provide pinpoint accuracy on the position of the enemy ship, let alone a particular aiming point on that ship; again, it usually can't, which is the entire purpose of using phaser locks in the first place.

Why would, say, a radar be better at pinpointing a phaser bank? It wouldn't have the resolution to analyze the surface texture. And the whereabouts and specs of the enemy phaser would more probably be revealed by its telltale emissions anyway, not through you throwing your own signals at it.

You paint a target on your enemy exactly where you want the shot to go; you can't miss.

Just telling your camera-based system to stay locked to five and a half centimeters to the left of that red arrow pattern on the hull should do the same. A radar or laser beam would drift off that pattern easily enough, since it's just a paint pattern rather than something you can see in relief.

If this isn't an option, you can MANUALLY aim the weapons to hit a particular target, and while this is entirely possible (sharpshooters have been doing it for 3000 years) it can't be done by computer.

That's just plain idiotic. Why would a human be better at it than a computer?

Timo Saloniemi
 
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