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On Bedford Day, Remembering the Lost Cryonauts

My guess would be that they just wanted to emphasize how cryonics was an old, abandoned technology to them, since they have suspended animation by way of stasis fields and similar tech. It’s a bit like someone today would call steam engines a 19th century “fad”, because we have more advanced technology today. That doesn’t mean steam engines didn’t work or were worthless.
Ha! :) No, they clearly did not mean that the old technology was supplanted by better technology, but rather that in the primitive past (our present) "people feared dying (it terrified them!)," but that as humanity evolved, we overcame our "fear" of death and stopped trying to meddle with nature or live past our time.

Of course, this is false, because many characters in the 22nd, 23rd, and 24th centuries and beyond still fear death and are distraught when others die, and many of these deaths should've been preventable by then. In fact, we see many deaths that would've been reversible even with late twentieth century technology, since a mere lack of cardiopulmonary activity is often enough to immediately declare "He's dead, Jim!"

Advanced stasis fields are also not in widespread use. Again, Scotty had to jury rig a stasis chamber out of a pattern buffer at immense risk. Every ship should and could easily have a perfectly safe emergency stasis chamber. The lack of widespread stasis is just one of many examples of medical technology lagging behind everything else. I realize that the reason for this is to keep characters relatable as well as fragile enough to maintain dramatic tension, but from a realistic rather than storytelling perspective, we should have much less fatal injury and disease and much longer healthspans and lifespans by the 24th century.
 
Clare Raymond from "The Neutral Zone" appears for a moment in a montage of cryochambers from various science fiction movies and shows in this short segment on cryonics from the light news program The Project, which aired in Australia yesterday. My fellow cryonicist Marta Sandberg was interviewed and sent my global biostasis statistics spreadsheet to the producers for the most current estimate of cryonauts in the world (around 600).
 
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It's a tragedy because had they remained in cryostasis, they might have been restored to healthy, youthful life one day.

I understood the implication perfectly. It's simply a long reach in order to misuse and further trivialize a word that's already abused too frequently.

No, that these people were trying to evade their ends in a novel and expensive way does not make it "tragic." There is, however, some humor in the situation, which TNG exploited quite deftly in that scene. Hubris is always ripe for laughter.

There's nothing tragic about dead people remaining dead. "Might have been" is preposterously irrelevant as a justification.
 
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I understood the implication perfectly. It's simply a long reach in order to misuse and further trivialize a word that's already abused too frequently.
Look at their ages: 87, 80, 78, 76, 74, 62, 62, 61, 60, 55, 51, 49, 48, 43, 24, 8, 6. Most of these people died short of the average life expectancy of their time. Several died in their forties or fifties. Steven Mandell died in his mid twenties. Geneviève de la Poterie died at eight, and Sam Porter at six. This is most certainly tragic.
No, that these people were trying to evade their ends in a novel and expensive way does not make it "tragic."
All of medicine is an attempt to "evade our ends," and there is nothing wrong with that nor with novel and expensive treatments. All conventional treatments were once novel, and extreme failure rates are intrinsic. 97% of all cancer trials and more than 99% of Alzheimer's trials fail. We try anyway. We advance by testing boundaries, and cryopreservation is the ultimate boundary test.

It also doesn't have to be expensive. Oregon Brain Preservation will cryopreserve you for as little as $5,000 or chemopreserve you for as little as $1,000, Cryonics Germany cryopreserves people for free, and life insurance puts even the most expensive options, currently priced at $80,000 and $220,000, easily within reach of most young, healthy people in the developed world, who can lock in a sufficiently funded policy for life for under $50 a month.

Contrary to urban mythology, most cryonauts are middle or working class. Only two billionaires (Peter Thiel and Robert Miller) have announced any plans to become cryonauts, and none are currently in cryostasis. Of the 26 lost cryonauts, Raymond and Monique Martinot were the only two amongst the upper class. Geneviève de la Poterie came from a poor but loving Canadien family. Andrew Mihok was a drill press operator.
There is, however, some humor in the situation, which TNG exploited quite deftly in that scene.
Yes, one can find black humor in it, as terminal cancer patients or frontline soldiers often find in their predicaments, but "they were already dead" isn't nearly as amusing to those who understand, as Dr. Crusher did, that Clare Raymond, Sonny Clemonds, and Ralph Offenhouse were certainly not dead by 24th century medical standards.

Dr. Crusher clearly informed Picard that they required only "minor medical attention," yet within minutes, Picard irritably declares that "they were already dead" and wonders "what more could have happened to them." He then proceeds to begrudgingly acknowledge that "they're alive now" and so will have to be treated "as living human beings," even though both our medical ethics and theirs would dictate that they be treated as living human beings even before their reanimation. Data and Dr. Crusher admirably did so, but Picard seems to imply that had the cryonauts not been reanimated, leaving them to deteriorate would've been perfectly ethical even though they required only "minor medical attention."

While the status of actual cryonauts is highly uncertain, humanity had already perfected reversible human suspended animation by the 1980s in the show's universe, so Clare, Sonny, and Ralph remained fully intact through the centuries in ametabolic comas, suspended right at the moment of reversible clinical death, but not biologically dead (as real cryonauts are), let alone infotheoretically dead (as real cryonauts may or may not be). Would Picard really have refused minor medical attention to three helpless people aged 35, 47, and 55 and abandoned them to die—this time for real—in their cryosleep? Would you? I hope not, and I suspect not.
Hubris is always ripe for laughter.
There is no more hubris in cryopreservation than there is any other experimental medicine. Cryopreservation has the same basic premise as any other clinical trial for the terminally ill: even the slightest chance is preferable to none at all. The only difference is in the expected lead time of centuries rather than years or decades. No one's ever criticized for pulling out all (or, from the stasist perspective, almost all!) the stops against cancer, which can cost insurance companies hundreds of thousands or even over a million dollars per patient.

Cryotubes don't use power and have no moving parts. Nitrogen is condensed from thin air into a liquid, poured into the tube, and replenished as it evaporates. Since liquid nitrogen is extremely cheap (the atmosphere being 78% nitrogen, of course) and cryotubes are extremely well insulated, keeping a cryonaut in cryostasis can cost anywhere from a few hundred to a couple thousand 2024 dollars a year (with neurostasis costing the least, cephalostasis costing a bit more, and somastasis costing significantly more), meaning that the cost of keeping someone cryogenically suspended for several centuries or even an entire millennium can be equivalent to just a year or two of cancer treatment.
There's nothing tragic about dead people remaining dead. "Might have been" is preposterously irrelevant as a justification.
As explained above, the cryonauts in "The Neutral Zone" were certainly not dead, and the real cryonauts may not be irreversibly dead, either—and even if they are, eventually, their successors won't be. Nothing in the laws of physics prevents
 
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cryonics absolutely is an attempt to avoid death. Whether it implies one who wishes to do is craven is debatable. It may imply hope in better results tomorrow, but even in that it puts a duty of care on the living to maintain a frozen body out of some form of obligation.

I may want to be electroplated and propped up against various locations for a successful coffee table photography book when I kick the bucket. And a jazz funeral. I get nothing out of it, either way. I hope my kids just spend whatever money is left, if any, on a family outing or pay off some bills.
It's hard to feel anything about people wanting their bodies to be frozen because they're going to die anyway, so there is no real risk in the procedure. The deserve about as much mention as a box of fish sticks.

Real cryogenic "Storage" would be more useful for long term spaceflight if it involved not dying to begin with, regardless of having some philosophical discussion on what death means. If we get that far, technologically, it might one day be easier to just upload one's mind to storage, and download it into a fresh new body or robotic form as needed, maybe even a few temporary copies if needs justify it, or you're wanted for a really hot resurrection party orgy. Who wants an old body, anyway?
 
cryonics absolutely is an attempt to avoid death.
As is all medicine.
Whether it implies one who wishes to do is craven is debatable.
Almost all of us understand that reanimation is not guaranteed. Robert Ettinger, founder of the Cryonics Institute and author of The Prospect of Immortality, was severely wounded while fighting in the Second World War. Fred Chamberlain III, who cofounded Alcor with his wife Linda, was also a military veteran, as was his father, who became a cryonaut before him. Also, Ev Cooper, who founded the first cryonics organization and published Immortality: Physically, Scientifically, Now months before Ettinger's book, was a fearless sailor (who ended up in Davy Jones' locker instead of a cryotube). They were all drawn to cryonics precisely because they were able to face death head on instead of ignoring it or romanticizing it.
It may imply hope in better results tomorrow, but even in that it puts a duty of care on the living to maintain a frozen body out of some form of obligation.
Yes, each successive generation willingly watches over the previous one. Mainstream medicine also cares for patients who may not recover for decades or ever. The bulk of the cryopreservation fee goes into a trust which sustains itself through accrued interest, and maintaining cryostasis requires very little money or labor.
t's hard to feel anything about people wanting their bodies to be frozen because they're going to die anyway, so there is no real risk in the procedure. The deserve about as much mention as a box of fish sticks.
There's no real risk in the sense that the only alternative is certain irreversible death, but in cryostasis they had a chance, however minute, of returning to life one day. That chance is now gone for them.
If we get that far, technologically, it might one day be easier to just upload one's mind to storage, and download it into a fresh new body or robotic form as needed, maybe even a few temporary copies if needs justify it, or you're wanted for a really hot resurrection party orgy. Who wants an old body, anyway?
I agree, and that's exactly what I hope to see by entering cryostasis (and why I don't see any need to bring my whole body).
 
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No. Medicine preserves and extends life.
Cryostasis will do no different if it succeeds. If reanimated into a world free of disease and aging, cryonauts could extend their healthspans and lifespans indefinitely but not literally forever.
And the term cryonaut is moronic. The "naut" part of the word means traveller. No one is travelling. They're just frozen corpses kept from rotting. The sirloin in my freezer is not a suppernaut.
It is not moronic. If they are reanimated, they will indeed have traveled through time to the distant future, which is what the term "cryonaut" references.
 
Cryostasis will do no different if it succeeds. If reanimated into a world free of disease and aging, cryonauts could extend their healthspans and lifespans indefinitely but not literally forever.

It is not moronic. If they are reanimated, they will indeed have traveled through time to the distant future.
lol
ok
I hope that tilapia next to the Ben and Jerry's journeys to next Monday. I got my meals mapped out.
 
lol
ok
I hope that tilapia next to the Ben and Jerry's journeys to next Monday. I got my meals mapped out.
You have the foresight to positively anticipate postbiological immortality, morphological freedom, and even branching identity, so you're clearly not one of those who think humanity must or should remain biological and mortal forever. You have more vision than the vast majority of humanity at present. Cryostasis offers us in the present a nonzero chance, however infinitesimal, of seeing that very future which you imagine.
 
I don't think post-humanism is necessarily inevitable, nor even desirable. I am completely uncertain about that. I have the Philosophy of Posthumanism as an elective later this year if I chose too but I'm probably going to take capstone project on something else, instead.

The question becomes ontological and I think you have addressed that, though neither of can really say: when does life extension become death prevention or is this just semantics and they are both the same thing. That gets into the entire issue of what "Being" even is.

Once could argue we've been post-humanists since a hominid fashioned some kind of walking stick, or since clothes were invented.

But let's argue for a moment that a frozen corpse cannot pass the rigors of Descartes cogito. Or, even moreso to fail even the test of George Berkely's counterpoint "to be is to be perceived." I cannot view these frozen bodies as any more lives an a frozen embryo.
 
I don't think post-humanism is necessarily inevitable, nor even desirable. I am completely uncertain about that. I have the Philosophy of Posthumanism as an elective later this year if I chose too but I'm probably going to take capstone project on something else, instead.
If we survive long enough and continue to advance, we will certainly overcome the limits of natural selection, biology, and aging, and the world's religions and mythologies and folklore about imaginary heavenly afterlives and reincarnation prove that most people want to transcend those limits.
when does life extension become death prevention or is this just semantics and they are both the same thing. That gets into the entire issue of what "Being" even is.
I think it is indeed no more than a semantic difference. I also don't think "death prevention" would be negative in any way. Medicine has always sought to extend health and life as long as possible. People over a century old continue to receive medical care. We don't tell them they've had enough life and need to die now. Jeanne Calment (1875-1997) was celebrated, not reviled, for her still-unequalled 122 years. She lived through more change than anyone else in history, and may be the only person ever who both met Vincent van Gogh (as she claimed she did after being introduced to him by her future husband in her uncle's fabric shop in Arles, 1888) and witness the beginning of the World Wide Web. She also remained remarkably healthy, bicycling until she was 100 and walking until she fell shortly before she turned 115, and was mentally sharp right up to her death.

People didn't tell her she'd had too much life and call for her execution because living to 120 is unfair when most don't live to 80. They loved and were fascinated by her and her life experience and history. The number of centenarians in the world is growing fast both in America and around the world. Eventually, barring an apocalypse, average life expectancy will exceed 100 years, and aging will become reversible, which will massively reduce human suffering and increase productivity (and there's more than enough space, energy, and raw materials in the universe to support a population of immortals, and that's before even getting into simulated reality and digital immortality, which could enable even larger sustainable populations).
One could argue we've been post-humanists since a hominid fashioned some kind of walking stick, or since clothes were invented.
Indeed. That is exactly how I and many other transhumanists think.
But let's argue for a moment that a frozen corpse cannot pass the rigors of Descartes cogito. Or, even moreso to fail even the test of George Berkely's counterpoint "to be is to be perceived."
If we advance far enough, suspended animation will inevitably be perfected eventually, and before that happens, we will inevitably preserve people (if we haven't already) well enough to reanimate them with future technology.

Preservation is much easier than reanimation, so the first viable cryonaut will ultimately be found to have been preserved long before reanimation was possible. Whether that first viable cryonaut was preserved in 1967, 2000, or 2014, or won't be preserved until 2030, 2050, or 2100 or later remains to be seen, but we would prefer to discover that we began preserving people too early rather than not as soon as we could have.

In other words, far better to ultimately discover that we began to attempt emergency cryotransport to the future long before we could preserve people well enough to enable reanimation rather than long after we could have.
 
They're perfect mummies :shrug:
They're actually the exact opposite of mummies, since mummification entails removing and discarding the brain whereas cryopreservation prioritizes the brain above all else and sometimes preserves only the brain.

Mummification was a superstitious practice whereas cryopreservation is a highly experimental clinical trial on the outermost edge of speculative medical science with an expected lead time of centuries.
 
I still don't see it as anything more than expensive taxidermy. Much like mummified pharaohs and livers in canopic jars, it's faith in a better world via death. I have a faith, but I don't bother calling it science.
 
I still don't see it as anything more than expensive taxidermy.
It is much more than that:
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Taxidermy doesn't preserve neural structure at all. Cryopreservation can, especially with vitrification and intermediate temperature storage. Watch Greg Fahy's presentation to see how vastly cryopreservation differs from taxidermy.
Much like mummified pharaohs and livers in canopic jars
Again, mummified pharaonic brains were discarded, whereas the brain is the primary focus of cryonics.
it's faith in a better world via death.
It's a speculative last resort against death. We would prefer to not need cryopreservation at all.
I have a faith
In what?
but I don't bother calling it science.
Although cryonics is rejected by the vast majority of scientists (who reject its central impetus, that preserving people immediately after clinical death might enable them to benefit from vastly more advanced technology in the distant future), it does have a small but slowly growing number of scientists supporting it.
 
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They're actually the exact opposite of mummies, since mummification entails removing and discarding the brain whereas cryopreservation prioritizes the brain above all else and sometimes preserves only the brain.

Mummification was a superstitious practice whereas cryopreservation is a highly experimental clinical trial on the outermost edge of speculative medical science with an expected lead time of centuries.
You're thinking of Egyptian ones. The general term does apply, and they are certainly not the exact opposite :D
 
You're thinking of Egyptian ones. The general term does apply, and they are certainly not the exact opposite :D
Any and all mummies are infotheoretically dead as no neurosynaptic preservation was achieved, whereas electron microscopy taken from the biopsy of a human brain vitrified (not frozen) under ideal conditions immediately after clinical death and placed in intermediate temperature storage shows preservation of fine cellular detail, as shown and explained in the video above. So, yes, cryonauts certainly are the exact opposite of mummies.

A Few Scientific Arguments in Favor of the Technical Feasibility of Reanimation


To whom it may concern,

Cryonics is a legitimate science-based endeavor that seeks to preserve human beings, especially the human brain, by the best technology available. Future technologies for resuscitation can be envisioned that involve molecular repair by nanomedicine, highly advanced computation, detailed control of cell growth, and tissue regeneration.

With a view toward these developments, there is a credible possibility that cryonics performed under the best conditions achievable today can preserve sufficient neurological information to permit eventual restoration of a person to full health.

The rights of people who choose cryonics are important, and should be respected.

Sincerely (78 Signatories)​

~ The Scientists' Open Letter on Cryonics


Medical biostasis is an experimental procedure that induces metabolic arrest at cryogenic temperatures to allow terminally ill patients to benefit from future medical advances and restore them to good health. Practiced as a hospital-based, elective medical procedure, medical biostasis consists of three distinct procedures: induction of hypothermic circulatory arrest, cryoprotection, and long-term care at intermediate temperatures (between -120℃ and -130℃). This document sets out a detailed protocol for medical biostasis, outlines a variation of this protocol for out-of-hospital emergency cases, and outlines research directions to further optimize this protocol.

Medical biostasis is an experimental medical procedure to stabilize terminally ill patients in a state of low-temperature biostasis in order to transport them to a time where their condition can be treated and any adverse effects of the biostasis procedure itself can be reversed. The concept of medical biostasis is an extension of existing mainstream medical procedures in which the temperature of a patient is lowered sufficiently to stop the heart to conduct advanced surgical procedures on the brain (i.e., deep hypothermic circulatory arrest). The premise of medical biostasis is that modern vitrification technologies can lower the temperature of the patient sufficiently enough to induce complete metabolic arrest. Placing a patient in medical biostasis prevents any kind of critical condition from advancing and allows science and medicine to catch up to the point where matter can be manipulated at the molecular level and restoration of the patient to good health is feasible.​

~ The Medical Biostasis Protocol (Aschwin de Wolf, MSc and Dr. Ville Salmensuu, MD)


Freezing human bodies in the hope of future revival is something people always ask me about. There are companies that do this, they mimic what we’re doing in cryobiology and attempt to preserve people who have recently passed away. Hundreds of bodies are currently cryopreserved in liquid nitrogen tanks even though there’s no rewarming method now that would ensure their survival after thawing.

If you had asked me the question 20 years ago, I would’ve told you it’s pure science fiction. But now I have to tell you, in the future I think anything is possible. Cryopreservation and biobanking have already become indispensable in modern medicine and across industries like healthcare, agriculture, environmental conservation and biotech. In our labs we’re developing new technology to meet urgent needs in cellular and gene therapy, regenerative medicine, tissue engineering, stem cell and organ transplantation, new vaccine and drug development, disease screening, and fertility treatments. Plus, this is the biological information age – the preservation of genes, seed banks, the gametes of endangered species, and so on. When you think about all of these things taken together it’s very exciting.​

~ Dr. Dayong Gao, PhD, ORIGINCELL Endowed Professor of the University of Washington Department of Mechanical Engineering and Director of the Center for Cryobiomedical Engineering and Artificial Organs


Let's assume we can get cryonics to work—and one day, it will. There will be one of these things that's kind of like ChatGPT. One day, somebody will figure out how to get water from zero degrees centigrade down to minus forty-four or something without it expanding, and cryonics will be solved, and then you'll be able to put a pause in, so to speak, and reappear a hundred years later.
~ Dr. Stephen Wolfram, PhD


First you die, but you get yourself frozen in liquid nitrogen immediately after death. Liquid nitrogen will keep you unchanged at roughly 200 degrees below zero centigrade, or 320 below zero Fahrenheit. Once you're that cold you will deteriorate no further, and your body will keep indefinitely. Then, there comes a time when whatever it was that killed you becomes curable. It may be 100 years hence, 500 years hence, but the doctors bring you back to life and give you the cure. You can then go right on living.

What have you got to lose? You won't have to live tediously through the waiting. However long it may be, it will seem to you to have passed in a flash. You will close your eyes in death and open them in life in the space of a wink. In fact, the longer the wait, the more interesting the future you enter.​

~ Dr. Isaac Asimov, PhD, "See You in the Hereafter" (1972)


The statements (a) cryonics has no chance of working and (b) cryonics does not advance scientific or medical knowledge, are both obviously wrong, as is amply proved by expert testimony. Although no one can quantify the probability of cryonics working, I estimate it as at least 90% — and certainly nobody can say it is zero! The statement that it does not advance scientific knowledge is absolutely ridiculous, because whether it will work or not, research in this area will obviously be of great medical value. I would go so far as to say that anyone who maintains positions (a) and (b) is not only incompetent but guilty of doing grave damage to society — like the doctors who opposed anesthetics, and even asceptics, in the last century, because they were "against Nature!"​

~ Sir Arthur C. Clarke, personal correspondence with Dr. Greg Fahy (1989)


The first-ever evaluation of an actual Alcor case showed no detectable fracturing, no ice crystal formation or damage, acceptable preservation of histology, good preservation of ultrastructure, and very likely connectome preservation.​

~ Dr. Greg Fahy, PhD, "Examination of a Cryopreserved Brain" (2022)


The restorative methods presented in Cryostasis Revival generally involve three phases of work: (1) collecting information from preserved structure, (2) computing how to fix damaged structure, and (3) implementing the repair procedure. The first and last of these phases employ sophisticated nanorobots small enough to pass through blood vessels and other microscopic tissue corridors, as well as a nanorobotic support infrastructure called the “vasculoid” that temporarily coats the inner surface of these spaces with atomically precise machinery. The activity in the second phase is primarily computational and takes place outside of the body using an external high-performance computer and specialized software.

Ultimately, it all depends on nanotechnology.

If a mature nanotechnology is the key to revival, how can we be sure it will exist when we need it, and will actually work when we use it? We know that molecular machines such as nanoscale bearings, ratchets, pumps, motors, conveyors, and the like exist in various forms in biological systems. And they work! Additionally, these basic molecular machines have been assembled into complex micron-scale biological devices called cells, which have many capabilities analogous to those envisioned for medical nanorobots. In turn, these molecular machines and micron-scale biological devices have been assembled into highly-differentiated macroscale systems including large organisms such as human beings. Human beings can manufacture more of themselves, thus increasing total biological productive capacity, much as is envisioned for nanofactories that will someday manufacture more nanofactories, along with medical nanorobots. Because these molecular machines already exist in biological systems, they clearly violate no fundamental physical laws.

It is also important to note that the emergence of biological systems required a continuous chain of incremental evolutionary steps that imposed very stringent design limitations on these systems (e.g., must forage for their own food, defend themselves from predators, not differ markedly from parental systems, carry their own instructions for replication, etc.). Medical nanorobots, on the other hand, can be designed de novo at any easier-to-build point in the design space and will have far less stringent design limitations (e.g., can use optimal feedstock materials and energy conveniently supplied externally, can utilize a wider range of building materials, need no defense from predators during fabrication, has no need to self-replicate, etc.), hence can be much simpler systems than biological organisms.

As a result, we have high confidence that medical nanorobots can exist and can be simpler to design and operate than biological systems. How long might it take human technology to fabricate such complex nanosystems? Natural evolution required ~750 million years to evolve the first simple replicating cells via a ponderously slow incremental random walk through a very large design space. In contrast, human scientists can apply intelligence, creativity, selectivity, computer simulations, the physical tools of engineering, and the inspiration of a worked example (i.e., biology) to inform and vastly speed the development process. Human engineers built the first mechanical self-replicating systems in less than 750 years of effort. That’s a million times faster than nature required to blindly evolve the first self-replicating cells. So, how long until we have molecular manufacturing? Perhaps centuries? Possibly decades? Opinions on timing differ widely, and the development speed obviously depends on how well the effort is funded, but there are no fundamental scientific or technical reasons why it cannot be done.

~ Robert A. Freitas, Jr., JD, Cryostasis Revival (2022)
 
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