Okay, so if we assumeed that Khan *is* in STXII...

[Lance]

(I add the caveat that I'm no longer convinced he is. But let's just speculate for a bit, shall we?

*If* Khan were to pop up in STXII... or even ST XIII... then, in my view, it would have to be in the context of being a remake of Space Seed. To some degree. Even if only in the surface elements.

Wait, hear me out. We all know the timeline of Trek XI only diverges at the point where NEro encounters the Kelvin. That much has been confirmed as true. It's only after this point that the timeline begins to head down the track that gives us Captain James Dean of the fat (phat?) nuEnterprise. Everything that happened before the Kelvin incident is, we are lead to believe, exactly how it happened in the Prime timeline (or near enough to it).

In which case... Khan must still have left Earth in cryogenic suspension in the 1990s. According to Trek XI, this must have happened in both versions of the timeline. Even if the JJ-verse chose to take the character in a completely different direction, and I certainly hope that they do, then the starting point must, by definition, still be the uncovering of the S.S. Botany Bay. Sure, the rest of the plot could be different -- there might be no Marla McGivers, or maybe the Botany Bay was 'unearthed' by a ship other than the Enterprise herself in the JJ-verse -- but nevertheless, the starting point would still have to be from the same Khan that we saw in the Prime-verse.

I'm really only thinking aloud, because I've seen a lot of speculation about how they could shake up Khan's established backstory (my favourite one I've read is that they could make him into a modern Starfleet experiment in eugenics, a 23rd century clone of Prime-Khan rather than the real deal). But the way I see it, for it to truly be Khan Noonian Singh, the real Khan Noonian Singh, then he'd still have to be defrosted aboard the Botany Bay. Everything after that is, of course, still up for debate.

What do you think? Does any of that make sense?

 

[Gojira]

Yes, that makes sense. In both time lines Khan is the last of the great dictators, a product of genetic engineering, and is in cryogenic suspension aboard the Botany Bay since the 1990s.

 

[Dukhat]

Just because there are plot elements from past Trek doesn't mean that they're automatically going to be revisited now. That was the whole point in creating the alternate universe...so future writers wouldn't have to be constrained by 40 years of previous canon. Remember, V'Ger and the whale probe are still presumably on their way to Earth, but I doubt that we'll ever see them again. Consequently, if we never saw Khan again, we could just assume that the Botany Bay was never found, or that things worked out in such a way that Khan never became a threat. Heck, as has been stated in other thread topics, Spock Prime could have told Starfleet "When you find an old DY-100 ship adrift in space, DO NOT BOARD IT. Tow it back to Earth and put those frozen bodies in stasis."

 

[SonicRanger]

Spock's Jellyfish and the Narada weren't the only things sucked into the black hole and scattered across time. As far as we know, there was an asteroid, cosmic ray, or chunk of Romulus debris sent all the way back to the a few hours after the Big Bang, and things have never been quite the same since.

 

[BorgPhil]

If they decided to change the launch of Botany Bay to the 2090s, I wouldn't be greatly upset. what would be interesting is that in theory they could actually show us some of his time in this period if they wanted to

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Yep. If Khan is in the movie, he's the same guy as Ricardo Montalban played, and therefore needs to look a) Indian and b) like a genetically superior godlike superman.

Since the guy they hired to play the chief baddie fails on both counts, he isn't playing Khan or at the very least, not that Khan. Maybe a descendant? Maybe a Klingon who thought it would be hysterically funny to name himself after someone the Feddies feared? Who knows what the frak they're up to.

As far as we know, there was an asteroid, cosmic ray, or chunk of Romulus debris sent all the way back to the a few hours after the Big Bang, and things have never been quite the same since.

Can't rule that out, but wow, talk about confusing the audience...

 

[Lance]

Just because there are plot elements from past Trek doesn't mean that they're automatically going to be revisited now. That was the whole point in creating the alternate universe...so future writers wouldn't have to be constrained by 40 years of previous canon. Remember, V'Ger and the whale probe are still presumably on their way to Earth, but I doubt that we'll ever see them again. Consequently, if we never saw Khan again, we could just assume that the Botany Bay was never found, or that things worked out in such a way that Khan never became a threat. Heck, as has been stated in other thread topics, Spock Prime could have told Starfleet "When you find an old DY-100 ship adrift in space, DO NOT BOARD IT. Tow it back to Earth and put those frozen bodies in stasis."

Of course the V'Ger Probe or the whale probe are still probably out there and we're not going to see them, but that's precisely the point: if we do get to 'see' Khan, then his backstory is still going to have to be consistent with his prime universe counterpart, Botany Bay and all. In order to work within the same logic that has already been established by these same screenwriters in their own Trek XI (the universe only diverged at the point where the USS Kelvin encounters Nero), then the starting off point for *any* potential return of Khan must still be an old DY-100 sleeper ship adrift in space. Any alternative universe version of Khan must have also left the Earth prior to Nero's intervention in the timeline, so his backstory just has to be exactly the same as his prime counterpart, right up until whatever point he gets woken up. The second part of your post does seem to support precisely what I was saying: the Botany Bay backstory would still have to be given lip service regardless of how 'different' the new Khan is, because prior to his being thawed out he's the same person, with the same history as his prime counterpart.

I only mention it because there is a lot of speculation in fandom about the ways that they could create a 'different' Khan for the new universe. As I see it, the only way it could be a 'different' Khan, with a different backstory, is if he were to be some sort of a clone, or perhaps if somebody else has travelled back in time and changed the timeline AGAIN (which really would make the new movie into being a complete rehash of Trek XI). To be perfectly honest, I'm still hoping that Khan isn't in the new movie at all.

 

[Set Harth]

Khan is in the movie, Dennis says so.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

I would move the date of his reign forward from the 1990s m'self (seeing as ENT has basically retconned the Eugenics Wars to taking place in the 2050s anyways), but the rest is all pretty likely if Khan is in the movie. I imagine they'd keep the story of his origin much the same as a wink/concession to the fans.

 

[Lance]

I would move the date of his reign forward from the 1990s m'self (seeing as ENT has basically retconned the Eugenics Wars to taking place in the 2050s anyways), but the rest is all pretty likely if Khan is in the movie. I imagine they'd keep the story of his origin much the same as a wink/concession to the fans.

Retconning it to be the 2050s is something I can support. I do just feel that ultimately, if Khan is in the picture, then certain sequences which were addressed in Space Seed must also be addressed here (which shouldn't be mistaken for me suggesting they should remake Space Seed, as that is definitely the last thing that I'd want). I'm absolutely certain that they can still put a different spin on the whole Botany Bay thing.

 

[Dukhat]

Just because there are plot elements from past Trek doesn't mean that they're automatically going to be revisited now. That was the whole point in creating the alternate universe...so future writers wouldn't have to be constrained by 40 years of previous canon. Remember, V'Ger and the whale probe are still presumably on their way to Earth, but I doubt that we'll ever see them again. Consequently, if we never saw Khan again, we could just assume that the Botany Bay was never found, or that things worked out in such a way that Khan never became a threat. Heck, as has been stated in other thread topics, Spock Prime could have told Starfleet "When you find an old DY-100 ship adrift in space, DO NOT BOARD IT. Tow it back to Earth and put those frozen bodies in stasis."

Of course the V'Ger Probe or the whale probe are still probably out there and we're not going to see them, but that's precisely the point: if we do get to 'see' Khan, then his backstory is still going to have to be consistent with his prime universe counterpart, Botany Bay and all. In order to work within the same logic that has already been established by these same screenwriters in their own Trek XI (the universe only diverged at the point where the USS Kelvin encounters Nero), then the starting off point for *any* potential return of Khan must still be an old DY-100 sleeper ship adrift in space. Any alternative universe version of Khan must have also left the Earth prior to Nero's intervention in the timeline, so his backstory just has to be exactly the same as his prime counterpart, right up until whatever point he gets woken up. The second part of your post does seem to support precisely what I was saying: the Botany Bay backstory would still have to be given lip service regardless of how 'different' the new Khan is, because prior to his being thawed out he's the same person, with the same history as his prime counterpart.

I only mention it because there is a lot of speculation in fandom about the ways that they could create a 'different' Khan for the new universe. As I see it, the only way it could be a 'different' Khan, with a different backstory, is if he were to be some sort of a clone, or perhaps if somebody else has travelled back in time and changed the timeline AGAIN (which really would make the new movie into being a complete rehash of Trek XI). To be perfectly honest, I'm still hoping that Khan isn't in the new movie at all.

But Khan isn't going to be in the movie, so there's really nothing to worry about.