Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1st

[Tora Ziyal]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

The fact is, many stores (Walgreens) and hospitals won;t take Medicare because it doesn't pay enough to make ends meet.

The fact is, Walgreens does take Medicare. So do Wal-Mart, Target, RiteAid, and CVS. Plus the major grocery chains in my area. (At which point I stopped looking.)

Care to try again?

Thanks for that. I was looking it up myself, because I was pretty sure that wasn't right.

Anyone else who deals with insurance companies can probably vouch for this, too: the nice thing about Medicare is that it's pretty easy to get them to pay. No, it doesn't pay as much as a private insurer would, but it pays more reliably. That's your tradeoff. With Medicare, you submit your claim files, and they either pay or they don't, and payment is always contingent on whether you followed CMS rules, so there's no arbitrary "no, we aren't going to pay this" crap. Private insurers, on the other hand, will make a provider jump through a bunch of hoops just to get any payment at all.

That's encouraging to hear. I'm new to Medicare. Unlike a lot of people, I had no problems with my private insurer. For most of my life, I was very healthy, but when I eventually did get sick, I did so in a big way, and they paid out a lot for me. So I've been a bit concerned about what being on Medicare will be like. I'll tell you what I don't like already: dealing with Medicare itself, plus a medigap policy, plus the prescription plan. But if they pay for everything I need them to pay for, I'll survive the inconvenience.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

If you like that it's fine, but the free market, if allowed to be free, will lower cost and make insurance affordable to all.

This keeps being bandied around, but I have yet to see any proof of that. The "invisible hand" is more like a religion than an economic theory.

Are there state boundaries for auto insurance?

A better question would be: is auto insurance compulsory?

 

[Tora Ziyal]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

^ Even I would say that that's not a valid comparison. Yes, auto insurance is compulsory if you're going to drive or own a vehicle. But it's not compulsory that you drive or own a vehicle.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

If you like that it's fine, but the free market, if allowed to be free, will lower cost and make insurance affordable to all.

Oh, but the free market reduces government power and control.... can't have that now can we?

You realize that the reasons that protections for workers and benefits built up over the years was caused by taking power away from the free market?

Without worker protections, you'd be living in a bug-infested slum working for pennies on the hour and have no health-care at all.

Go back and live in the late-19th/early-20th century as a worker then come back and tell us all how good life is...

 

[Misfit Toy]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

If you like that it's fine, but the free market, if allowed to be free, will lower cost and make insurance affordable to all.

Oh, but the free market reduces government power and control.... can't have that now can we?

You realize that the reasons that protections for workers and benefits built up over the years was caused by taking power away from the free market?

Without worker protections, you'd be living in a bug-infested slum working for pennies on the hour and have no health-care at all.

But it would be FREE Market bug infestation. Competition would weed out the weaker bugs.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

If you like that it's fine, but the free market, if allowed to be free, will lower cost and make insurance affordable to all.

Oh, but the free market reduces government power and control.... can't have that now can we?

You realize that the reasons that protections for workers and benefits built up over the years was caused by taking power away from the free market?

Without worker protections, you'd be living in a bug-infested slum working for pennies on the hour and have no health-care at all.

But it would be FREE Market bug infestation. Competition would weed out the weaker bugs.

 

[J.T.B.]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

This keeps being bandied around, but I have yet to see any proof of that. The "invisible hand" is more like a religion than an economic theory.

Indeed. What "free marketeers" rarely take into account is that normal market forces break down when (a) the consumer literally can't live without the producer's product and thus has no negotiating power and (b) it ultimately depends on a human being on the producer/provider side being ready to let another person suffer or die if they can't afford treatment. A good way around that breakdown is to spread the expense over a large pool -- the bigger the better -- so a large number of healthy people pay a little to ameliorate the expense of a small number of very sick people. But apply that principle on a national scale, through a government that people voted for, and then it's "No! Socialism!"

Are there state boundaries for auto insurance?

States have the right to regulate the insurance industry operating in their own lines, including auto insurance if they wanted. Do you want the federal government to supersede those states' rights?

Because they are not compaired with a real free marekt economy?

Those in power will say systems with that power are "better".

Those "in power" are those people voted to put in power. If Medicare is so bad, why hasn't it been voted out?

 

[iguana_tonante]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

^ Even I would say that that's not a valid comparison. Yes, auto insurance is compulsory if you're going to drive or own a vehicle. But it's not compulsory that you drive or own a vehicle.

I think it's a valid comparison (barring a system with UHC, which apparently the US can't have 'cause O NOES TEH SOSILISM).

Cars are prone to accidents, so if you are going to operate a vehicle, you need car insurance. Bodies are prone to illnesses and injuries, so if you are going to operate a body, you need health insurance.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

But the federal government doesn't provide those services. What the federal government provides is outlined very clearly in the Consitution.

Really? Food Stamps, federal grants for child care and immunization, veteran's health care and the Centers for Disease Control aren't outlined very clearly in the Constitution. In fact, they're not mentioned at all.

Unless they all fall under the wider philosophical concept and umbrella of "promoting the general welfare." Which I and many others argue they do. And the Supreme Court upheld the Affordable Care Act as being constitutional under the aegis of the taxation powers afforded to Congress in the document.

Obamacare is legal. The individual insurance mandate is legal and proper as declared by the United States Supreme Court, a court where a majority of the justices were appointed by center-right Republicans. This has been decided. You can disagree with it all you like. Most of us think Citizens United was an embarrassment, and one can argue that Citizens United can do a thousand times the lasting damage to our society and political system than the Right says Obamacare will do to our health care system.

The Constitution doesn't say much, but it says more than you think if you don't just toss aside "promote the general welfare" as a throwaway line added to the preamble to make it sound even more noble.

Specifically, tax to provide for the general welfare is the clause, which necessarily includes spending the money taxed. Note that it doesn't say tax to provide for other enumerated powers. The history of Congress shows that, from the beginning, they interpreted this provision to mean that Congress had a broad spending power as long as it wasn't a criminal regulatory power. They've also used taxes from the beginning to influence decisions rather than for the sole purpose of raising revenue. "Sin taxes" (cigarettes, alcohol, etc.) fall under this umbrella, for example. Throughout the history of our nation, there has been no serious Congressional practice or court ruling to indicate any of this is problematic.

The shared responsibility provision (individual mandate) is just a continuation of this.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

The fact is, many stores (Walgreens) and hospitals won;t take Medicare because it doesn't pay enough to make ends meet.

The fact is, Walgreens does take Medicare. So do Wal-Mart, Target, RiteAid, and CVS. Plus the major grocery chains in my area. (At which point I stopped looking.)

Care to try again?

Thanks for that. I was looking it up myself, because I was pretty sure that wasn't right.

Anyone else who deals with insurance companies can probably vouch for this, too: the nice thing about Medicare is that it's pretty easy to get them to pay. No, it doesn't pay as much as a private insurer would, but it pays more reliably. That's your tradeoff. With Medicare, you submit your claim files, and they either pay or they don't, and payment is always contingent on whether you followed CMS rules, so there's no arbitrary "no, we aren't going to pay this" crap. Private insurers, on the other hand, will make a provider jump through a bunch of hoops just to get any payment at all.

Plus, it's not like insurance companies actually pay the costs that hospitals bill their services at anyway, so Medicare is not unique in paying lower rates.

 

[Tora Ziyal]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Alidar, well said. (Oops, both posts!)

^ Even I would say that that's not a valid comparison. Yes, auto insurance is compulsory if you're going to drive or own a vehicle. But it's not compulsory that you drive or own a vehicle.

I think it's a valid comparison (barring a system with UHC, which apparently the US can't have 'cause O NOES TEH SOSILISM).

Cars are prone to accidents, so if you are going to operate a vehicle, you need car insurance. Bodies are prone to illnesses and injuries, so if you are going to operate a body, you need health insurance.

Okay, I'm kinda sorta with you. However... Short of suicide, one has no choice but to operate one's body. So I'm not with you all the way.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Exactly. That's my point.

Medical care is expensive. Since as a society we decided we will not hold back emergency medical treatment and let people die on the steets without assistance (I can't believe I even need to say this, but apparently there are people for whom this is not automatic), if someone can't affort the treatment, the rest of society will pay the bill for them. In this scenario, it's only reasonable and fair that anybody would chip into the common pool, according to their financial possibilities (OMG SOSILISM).

So, given that you can't opt out to having a body, you can't opt out to having health insurance. Make it reasonable, make it fair. But the compulsoriness is nothing to be outraged about.

 

[mari]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Plus, it's not like insurance companies actually pay the costs that hospitals bill their services at anyway, so Medicare is not unique in paying lower rates.

Indeed. After my accident last year, the hospital charged me almost $50k, and Aetna ended up paying just over $9k.

 

[Tora Ziyal]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Exactly. That's my point.

Medical care is expensive. Since as a society we decided we will not hold back emergency medical treatment and let people die on the steets without assistance (I can't believe I even need to say this, but apparently there are people for whom this is not automatic), if someone can't affort the treatment, the rest of society will pay the bill for them. In this scenario, it's only reasonable and fair that anybody would chip into the common pool, according to their financial possibilities (OMG SOSILISM).

So, given that you can't opt out to having a body, you can't opt out to having health insurance. Make it reasonable, make it fair. But the compulsoriness is nothing to be outraged about.

It is straightforward (Hey, you deleted that sentence while I was writing!), and I agree 100%. I was only arguing that since cars can be opted out of, auto insurance isn't a totally valid comparison.

Plus, it's not like insurance companies actually pay the costs that hospitals bill their services at anyway, so Medicare is not unique in paying lower rates.

Indeed. After my accident last year, the hospital charged me almost $50k, and Aetna ended up paying just over $9k.

I had to deal with Aetna when I was handling my father's finances. Awful company, in my experience.

And now, folks, I'm going to go offline and get ready for... a doctor's appointment. Have fun.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

It is straightforward (Hey, you deleted that sentence while I was writing!)

Sorry. I was worried that sentence would sound too aggressive, and that was not my intention, so I modified it to better explain what I meant.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

All I can say is that we should be embarrassed that in a nation as wealthy as the United States that we have fifty-million people that don't have health insurance. And the problem is that the taxpayers end up footing the bill when these people get truly ill. As far as fining the uninsured, count me as someone who has no issue with it. The government is essentially billing them for medical services they'll need somewhere down the line.

So count me as someone who doesn't see a problem in forcing people who are able to get some type of coverage.

My wife carries our insurance through her employer and we pay between two and three hundred dollars (U.S.) a month for it. When I fell ill with a bacterial infection and bleeding ulcer last month, I went to the doctor had a rather uncomfortable exam, blood work twice, x-rays and prescriptions that ended up running me all of thirty-five bucks total out-of-pocket.

I'm sure our premiums will go up this year, but it's still worth every penny.

 

[IndyJones]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Well, you can look at the "successfulness" of Medicare and chose for yourself. The fact is, many stores (Walgreens) and hospitals won;t take Medicare because it doesn't pay enough to make ends meet.

That's bull. And I've got 3 main beefs with this section.

First: I posted the link the other day, but more than 90% of physicians take Medicare. And that percentage is going up, not down. Do you think they would all keep doing it if it weren't worth if for us?

That link also shows how much I, as an Optometrist, get reimbursed for Medicare patients. Suffice it to say, if I could see 2 *healthy* Medicare patients an hour, 7 hours a day, 50 weeks a year (and I do average more patients than that currently) I would bill out at $445,000 for professional fees. And, of course, Medicare patients aren't universally healthy, and the patients coming in for exams even less so. So, in reality I'd also end up billing for diagnostic testing and followups. Meaning that $445,000 is significantly lower than what I'd actually receive. Those payments aren't going to send anyone to the poorhouse.

Second: Do you have a list of hospitals that don't accept Medicare. Other than certain government run facilities, children's hospitals, and the Shriner's, I'd imagine it's exceedingly small.

Thirdly, and most ridiculously, although Medicare is pretty effective at keeping administrative costs down, and at reimbursements to providers (also saving tax payers money, natch), one of the biggest knocks against it is that it is not able to negotiate drug prices. Remember? That's the law.

So, how is it that Costco and Walgreen's and private insurers can negotiate with the drug companies but Medicare can't, and somehow the pharmacies are losing money dealing with Medicare? Does not make sense to you?

 

[Squiggy]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Under what constitutional authority does the Federal Government have the power to force the purchase of a good or service on an individual?

The Congress has the power to tax you, me, and everyone's grandmother however they see fit.

Asked and answered. Move along.

 

[cooleddie74]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Well, you can look at the "successfulness" of Medicare and chose for yourself. The fact is, many stores (Walgreens) and hospitals won;t take Medicare because it doesn't pay enough to make ends meet.

I worked for Walgreens for five years and neither encountered nor heard about a single instance where the chain did not accept Medicare coverage. Do you have evidence to support this assertion?

If the previous pages of this thread are any indicator, no. Most of the people who attack programs like Medicare and Medicaid bring up anecdotal stories of this place or that place that won't accept the programs, yet at best it's only a minority of care providers and the stories are deliberately played up to make it sound as if doctors everywhere are in open revolt against government health insurance - and by association, the Affordable Care Act.

It's the same playbook we're used to. Blow up random instances that are clearly in the minority into a nationwide problem and use the manufactured controversy to cut funds of or even shut down the program in question. Because a lot of Americans are just plain too partisan or lazy or dumb (or a combination of all three) to do their own personal research to see for themselves if the allegations are true. It happens all the time.

"Well, it sounds like something that would happen knowing our government!"

 

[marksound]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Whatever the other anecdotal evidence, my wife who is a mental heath professional will lose Medicare and Medicaid patients under Obamacare. They simply will not pay for her services. In a meeting with a representative of the (insert Federal Agency that I don't remember the name of because I don't work in that area) she and her colleagues were told in no uncertain terms that they were "committing fraud" by doing what they were trained to do, counseling, and under ACA would no longer be paid.

I'm not a fan of the government doing much of anything outside of national defense, but hey. Just sayin'.

Anecdotal, but first hand.

My big fear is that once it's in place and "running," services will have to be reduced due to funding limitations. Our government doesn't do very many things efficiently, and adding 1/6 of our economy to that mess is not encouraging.