Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1st

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

You obviously, and most likely purposefully misunderstood my comment. No information you posted is new to me.

I very simply meant those don't "have a stake" like those that do pay. They feel less ownership and are more likely to vote to line their pockets. As I've indicated in other posts, the current tax system is the reason for all this. It encourages division and class warfare. The current progressives in office are building an entitlement state where they make more promises and create more dependence in exchange for more votes. Another reason I support the Fair Tax.

So keep your shit and your cherry. I don't need either.

As you don't know my financial status or history nor the financial status of those "freeloaders" as you put it, your statement is rather narrow-minded, naive and flawed.

 

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Say what you want, but this would make for the best Tea Party protest sign ever.

I mean - yeah. It'd be misspelled (probably the "I"), but very amusing.

 

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Every time I hear someone mention the "Fair' tax, I facepalm.

To Yanks:

It's like this...

Say the "fair" tax is 20%.

Say one family is making, oh, $30,000/year.

Say the other family is making $3,000,000/year.

The first family's tax is $6000, leaving them with $24,000.

The second family's tax is $600,000, leaving them with $2,400,000.

Which amount do you think would be easier to live on for a year, $24,000 or $2,400,000?

What the fuck is "fair" about that?

 

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Um, no. You said "free ride." What else is that supposed to mean besides "these people aren't paying their way"? People who are paying payroll taxes, city/county taxes, and sales taxes are not getting a "free ride," unless you are defining "free ride" in some unusual way.

If they're voting to line their own pockets, they're doing a pretty poor job of it, considering that social welfare programs like food stamps, WIC, and section 8 housing are all being cut. These people feel less ownership because they don't own much.

We have very few "progressives" in office, by the way. The vast majority of Democrats in Congress, as well as Obama, are centrist at best and center-right at worst. We have a couple genuine leftists, but the are so few as to be nearly irrelevant.

This "entitlement state" you speak of doesn't create dependence. In fact, it's quite a joke to believe it's sufficient enough to do anything of the sort. The benefits available today are quite meager, and thanks to government cuts, they are getting smaller. Obamacare is one of the exceptions to that trend.

This idea that people vote themselves more and more entitlements has no basis in fact, by the way. Were it so, rural voters--who frequently benefit from all kinds of government support--would vote for Democrats instead of Republicans, but they don't. This tit for tat you describe doesn't even work. Again, where are all these massive entitlement expansions? Can you think of any besides those related to Obamacare?

The "Fair Tax" is inherently unfair, and is so radical it would redefine what a modern, developed country looks like. You seem to think that what it takes to motivate people to improve their lot is to pile more suffering on them, taking away what little government support they get in order to get them to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. (Did you know it's actually impossible to pull yourself up by your bootstraps? Go ahead, try it.) The job market still sucks for a lot of people, and you'd rather kick them around some more.

You don't know the financial status of anyone else here, either, so maybe you should avoid making assumptions about what motivates other people's views and votes.

 

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

In addition (now that the sun is up) Concerning enforcment of the Fair Tax System:

The old aphorism that nothing is certain except death and taxes should be modified to include tax evasion. Tax evasion is chronic under any system so complex as to be incomprehensible. As a percentage of gross domestic product (GDP), tax evasion in 2001 is beyond 2.6 percent, compared to 1.6 percent in 1991. This represents over 16 percent of taxes due. Almost 40 percent of the public, according to the IRS, is out of compliance with the present tax system, mostly unintentionally due to the enormous complexity of the present system. These IRS figures do not include taxes lost on illegal sources of income with a criminal economy estimated at a trillion dollars. All this, despite a major enforcement effort and assessment of tens of millions of civil penalties on American taxpayers in an effort to force compliance with the tax system. Disrespect for the tax system and the law has reached dangerous levels and makes a system based on taxpayer self-assessment less and less viable.

The FairTax reduces rather than increases the problem of tax evasion. The increased fairness, transparency, and legitimacy of the system induces more compliance. The roughly 90-percent reduction in filers enables tax administrators more narrowly and effectively to address noncompliance and increases the likelihood of tax evasion discovery. The relative simplicity of the FairTax promotes compliance. Businesses need answer only one question to determine the tax due: How much was sold to consumers? Finally, because tax rates decrease, tax evasion is less profitable; and because of the dramatic reduction in the number of tax filers, tax evaders are more easily monitored and caught under the FairTax system.

 

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

^ so what you're basically saying is:

'they didn't go for my crackpot obamacare theories, time to wow them with my crazy tax schemes!'

 

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

They're not even his schemes. Those paragraphs are copied and pasted, without attribution, from this page at fairtax.org.

 

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

 

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

This is going to be an itelligent conversation...

Foul language and class warfare don't help your argument one bit. So, what's different about the current system and the Fair Tax?

Here are some realistic numbers that aren't fueled by hatred.

Let’s look at a billionaire under the FairTax -- if he spends $10,000,000 dollars he pays a tax of $2,300,000 and gets a prebate of $4,697 (assuming he is married and has no children). His effective tax rate as a percent of spending is 22.95 percent.

Now, let’s look at a middle-income married couple with no children under the FairTax -- if they spend $50,000, they pay $6,803 net of their prebate for an effective tax rate of 13.6 percent. The effective tax rate increases as spending increases, but never exceeds 23 percent.

EXACTLY!!! Why support a system that only favors those that have figured it out better!! What the hell is "fair" about that?!?!?!

Many have been ousted by the TEA Party. That's a good thing. One need only look at the vote on the ACA to see the progressives. The Democrats wont say they are, but they follow their leadership like lemmings and the far left definately is.

Unemplyment extended to what, 99 weeks? Social Security Disability (see last 60 minutes program) benefits at record highs... Food Stamps enrollment at record highs...

All missmanaged and filled with fraud. Now we can look forward to that in our Healthcare as well.

One off the top of my head is Obama's removal of the work requirement for welfare.

But your mind is made up... Obama gave us the ACA, and the voters want more goodies. When the number of folks receiving these bennies start to outnumber the folks paying in, we'll be in trouble. (see Social Security) But noone seems to care.

I'm not kicking anyone around, but I'm not afraid of change either. There is NOTHING unfair about the Fair Tax system.

But that's the problem isn't it? You don't think things should be fair.

OK, you know best. The 47% (or whatever the number is) is real, whether is is polically correct or not. That number will rise and shit will really hit the fan.

Not sure what's being said here.

Crack-pot Obamacare theories?


Listen folks, the very tax system you support promotes class warfare, and is the most "unfair" system one could come up with. The ones that have "figured it out" and the ones with capitol influence it and the politicians to pass laws that favor them. that will never change.

Unless we change the system and take that power out of the politicians and the rich.

So don't complain about the haves and the have nots, and cling to a tax system that promotes that very divide.

Something like 95 percent of all income taxes are being paid by the top 5 percent of income earners. Do you actually think they give a shit about those that are making them pay more than their fair share of taxes? You really think that's going to change under the current system?

Keep smoken what you're smokin.

 

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Thanks Indy

 

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

I'm for the Affordable Care Act, expansions of Food Stamps, Unemployment and Education spending. The wife makes a decent living and we have health insurance (good health insurance).

What 'goodies' am I wanting exactly?

 

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Wut? I honestly cannot tell what you are trying to say here.

Wut?? Please name three progressive Democrats who were ousted by the Tea Party. Let's see if you can prove this claim.

The ACA is "progressive" only by a very modest definition of the world. Truly "progressive" would be, oh, I don't know, a public option/single-payer system?

1. Unemployment benefits last a while but they aren't much. Go on, check how much people can get in each state vs. the cost of living. Nobody's living large on unemployment money.
2. Disability enrollment is at an all-time high because a lot of people are unemployable. Jobs for them simply do not exist, and the jobs they worked in the past, coupled with generally poor health and prospects, have left them with few options but to get on disability. Disability wasn't supposed to be that kind of safety net, but that's what it has become because we have such a crappy safety net in general. It's become our welfare program of last resort. I don't think this is a good thing, but if you are suggesting we just kick people off of disability and tell them to go get jobs, you don't understand the reality of the situation.
3. Food stamps are being cut. Also, did you notice the economy sucks? Wall Street investors and corporate executives are making money hand over fist. Most others are barely making it, if they're making it at all. Again, cutting programs they need to get by isn't "helping" them by any stretch.

The food stamp fraud rate is somewhere around 1.7%. Hardly "filled with fraud." Not sure about the others, but I do know it is a long and arduous process to get on disability, so it's not like everybody and their brother is doing it. It often takes years and lengthy legal processes. No one does this because they are too lazy to get a job or something.

See, now you're just repeating a right-wing lie. Obama did no such thing. All Obama did was allow individual states to request waivers to the federal work requirement guidelines for certain types of assistance, so that states could manage their welfare spending as they saw fit. It wasn't a "gimme" to lazy welfare queens.

Yes, such horror, that people might want access to health insurance and medical care. What a dystopia. America is over.

You can't even argue as if you inhabit reality. You are living in some strange fantasy land where libruls have taken over everything and promised everyone an easy life of relaxation, free of want or hardship. No such thing has happened, but our politicians (Democrats and Republicans included, but mainly Republicans) have done everything they could over the past 30 years to destroy income mobility and eliminate opportunities for Americans to improve themselves and their lives. When the economy cratered in 2008, it accelerated those trends for a great many people. Your "solution" is to make things even harder for them, rather than help them at all.

Flat taxes are inherently unfair because they penalize people with lower discretionary incomes.

How do you define "fair"? I define it as everyone having adequate food, shelter, medical care, education, and opportunities and assistance to help everyone better themselves, regardless of where they are in life. The outcomes won't be the same for everyone, but when so many start with the deck stacked against them, or later have the rug pulled out from under them, you're looking at a system that is deeply unfair, a system that has rewarded a few at the expense of many, and your notion of making it "fairer" involves kicking those with the least down a few more rungs on the ladder.

There is actually a very strong correlation between a country's income inequality and its economic mobility, particularly across generational lines. In other words, the greater the income disparity between the richest and the poorest, the less likely it is you will be able to improve your own economic situation. Don't take my word for it, this is a well-researched area. Western Europeans enjoy greater economic mobility than Americans, and yet they are socialist hellholes or something. Strange.

No one's disputing that about half the population has been left out in the cold, we just disagree on what should be done about it.

 

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Did you forget that you weren't in TNZ?

Infraction for flaming. Comments to PM.

 

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

It get's crazier

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...k-Obama-accuses-Republicans-of-extortion.html

The White House on Tuesday morning said that Mr Obama had called Mr Boehner and re-iterated his position that he was "willing to negotiate" on spending, but only when the "threat of government shutdown and default have been removed."
Later, Mr Obama qualified that position saying for the first time he was prepared to give formal, written assurances that he would negotiate with Republicans on key budget items - but again only once they had passed a no-strings-attached funding bill.
"If my word's not good enough, and I've told them I'm happy to talk about it, if they want to specify all the items they think need to be topic of conversation, I'm happy to do it," he said.
These include items such as ending an unpopular tax on medical devices that is part of the Obamacare health reforms, and reforms to reduce entitlement spending by linking it to a different measure of inflation.
The Obama 'offer' was rejected Mr Boehner inside an hour: "What the president said today was if there's unconditional surrender by Republicans, he'll sit down and talk to us. That's not the way our government works," he said at a press conference on Capitol Hill.

Now maybe I'm misunderstanding the situation but it appears to be.

"We will not allow a clean bill to come before the house, we will only support a bill which defunds the PPACA. We will not negotiate on this point. But if you don't mind unconditonally surrendering to our position we would be happy to talk."

The situtation could seriously harm the global economy, of wich the USA is a part of. It could also damage the USA's reputation abroad.

 

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

I'm thinking the Tea Party thinks Obama won't want to be framed as the man "who sunk the world's economy".

They're counting on their media machine to drown out all common-sense and pin the potential default on Obama.

 

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Not sure that strategy will work as well as they think (well at least in certain countries and perhaps not in some states in the USA). I suspect many outside of the USA no were to place more of the blame.

 

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Actually being obstinate is how Presidents like Reagan came to be regarded as great. Sticking to his principles is exactly what the President should be doing. We elected him to do that. Those of us who agree with the President standing up to the Republicans in general and the Tea Party in particular should show our support.

 

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

What part of "half the country gets a free ride" did I misunderstand or misrepresent, exactly? Please explain.

And I'm pretty sure it is new information to you, or that you simply didn't read it, because you reiterate the same insulting myths below. When you say "those that do pay," what does the opposite of that imply?

Once again, almost everyone pays federal, state, and local taxes in some way and at some time in their lives. Some more than others, but often it actually balances out as a percentage of total income when you consider the loopholes and incentives you can take advantage of when you can afford to pay someone a decent sum just to manage your money/assets and do your taxes for you.

See, now I know you didn't read what I posted, or else you would know that a majority of the people who don't currently pay federal income tax are a combination of the elderly, active duty military in combat, and white rural poor and unemployed; groups that are more traditionally conservative voters and make up a large part of the Tea Party especially. So, where does that leave your theory about them voting for entitlements for themselves?

Also, you profoundly misunderstand attitudes in this country. Contrary to popular belief, very few people as a percentage of overall workers sue their employers or seek worker's compensation even when they are justifiably injured on the job. Many poor people see themselves as being rich one day and fervently believe in the outdated concept of the American Dream despite all the evidence to the contrary. People vote or act against their own best interests all the time here, either because they've been taught that it's okay for your employer to treat you and the labor force in general like crap in the former case, or because they think everyone has an equal opportunity and we can all pull ourselves up by our bootstraps in the latter case, despite that actually being fairly exceptional these days.

A tax that places a greater burden on the already beleaguered middle class (which has been whittled down by decades of union busting activities) and favors the top 1% of earners. Joy.

No shit I don't know your financial status, chief. That's kinda why I said "I bet you've paid less in federal income taxes than many of the people you're calling freeloaders." "I bet," as in it's an educated guess, since one of the biggest chunks of people you were calling freeloaders are in fact retired elderly people of various levels of wealth who had previously paid income taxes for more than 45-50 years.

So, which part am I flawed, naive, and narrow-minded about (which are hilarious insults coming from you given your fountain of angry nonsense spewing in this thread)? Or are you seriously going to contend that you've paid more in taxes than all of them? BTW, I'm not asking for you to present your financials, I'm simply asking you not to be so goddamn blinded by Tea Party/far right-wing rhetoric and slamming people who have contributed a great deal to this country as freeloading parasites.

 

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

He certainly has mine on this issue. He needs to stand firm on this.

 

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

I just hope they come to a solution soon...

Federal Shutdown Means No New Beer