Oh, the joys of being management!

[Crusher Disciple]

In December, I gave the people I supervise my home and cell number in addition to my work one. They also have my work e-mail address. As result, they have no reason to say they don’t have a way to get in touch with me if they aren’t coming in or running late.

On Thursday, I met with all of them and told them that if they’re running late, (10-20 minutes) they need to call me and tell me they’re running late. If not, I will mark them down on their timesheet as out for the day and they’ll be on record as being out 8 hours

Of course, I only have one person who abuses the “get to work at 8 if you’re scheduled here that time” policy. And this person is currently on probation for poor performance (I inherited him). Since this person has worked before (he mentions what he used to do at similar jobs in the past) and I would assume is not currently brain dead, I would assume he knows to call his supervisor when he is running late.

Today I get an e-mail from a member of my team who has permission to start his day thirty minutes before the rest of us, and I hear that this guy has called him to say he’s stuck in traffic.

Did I get a message from him? I, his supervisor? Nope. Just sticks his head in the door this morning when he drags in late and tells me “I didn’t know if I should call you or not.”

Why the hell would you not call your boss and tell them you’re coming in late???????

You’d think that with all the job cuts today people would at least make an effort to show up and do a little bit of work. And to try and follow their bosses’ directions.

But no. And here I go, wasting time I don’t have documenting because we don't work in private industry where things are that much easier.

 

[Hermiod]

Sure, a phone call doesn't hurt but you could also just not have people not fearing for their jobs when they are 30 minutes late, stop collecting hourly timesheets and instead grant them a little bit of occasional flexibility to deal with the fact that they exist in the universe for 16 hours a day they aren't at work.

In return, you get happier, more motivated employees, less paperwork and less crap to deal with in general. It kind of works for Google, Microsoft, Nokia and hundreds of other successful companies.

 

[Crusher Disciple]

Okay, first of all- a phone call does more than "not hurt," it's a way of letting me know if you're dead or alive and it helps me know if I'll have to pull other people off of their regular duties to pick up your slack.

We have mail that comes in at 8am every monring regarding multi million dollar contracts, and for most of that it's time sensitive. He knew that when he took the job, that being here on time is a requirement of the job.

Also, this guy has been on probabtion for almost 9 months, which is more than giving him a little space to breathe and flexibility. Part of the probation process is talking to him and trying to help him figure out what we can do to help him do his job more effectively.

When I got here, he had a blow up with a coworker, and called him names and cried when I tried to get to the bottom of it. We still extended his probation "to give him some flexibility." We called in a consultant to "give him some flexibility" and get to the bottom of things.

In short, we've bent over backwards, done every last thing HR wise we can do to give this guy a break, and he still keeps taking us for a ride. We're generating more paperwork and crap because we're trying to work with him and give him as many chances as possible. I've bent over backawrds to give him permission to leave early and take days off to take care of his family since I got here. I give that to all of my employees, and he's the only one who can't even muster the energy up to let me know when he's either coming in late or not coming in. It's common sense and professional behavior.

And who does it hurt? Not him. He's skating pretty and abusing the system.

Sorry, the idea that I'm not giving this guy any space just makes me laugh. All I've done is work with HR to give him a chance and he just keeps pulling this crap with me.

 

[Hermiod]

Fine, you've obviously given him some slack and he's tried to take more. That's not what I'm criticising here.

 

[Crusher Disciple]

The thing is, I know people are going to run late. Traffic is a bitch, you have to scrape ice off your car, you sleep late, etc. That's fine.

Just be responsible and call. If this had happened a few times, I could let it slide. But it's every freakin' day that this guy runs in late. Is a phone call too much to do?

I don't want them to be driving in bumper to bumper traffic on the interstate and risking their safety, by using their cell phone, but jeez- have some accountability.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

If he has trouble getting in for 8, why not ask him if he'd like to change his hours so he starts at 8:30 instead?

 

[Crusher Disciple]

If he has trouble getting in for 8, why not ask him if he'd like to change his hours so he starts at 8:30 instead?

The thing is, from what I've read he has trouble getting in no matter what his schedule is. We could schedule him from Noon-8pm and he'd still come in late.

And since this is a public service area, we have to have as many people there at 8am when the mail comes in to process it for them. We can't afford to have that much flexibility in schedules.

And from what I've seen, I'd have to stand over him during whatever schedule he has to make sure he's doing his work, period. So I'd probably never get any work done for baby sitting.

 

[John Picard]

This clown needs to be punted. I take it he's part of the under-30 generation where everyone gets a trophy and accountability was never part of his upbringing?

 

[Hermiod]

^No, a phone call isn't too much. It's just that this comment...

You’d think that with all the job cuts today people would at least make an effort to show up and do a little bit of work. And to try and follow their bosses’ directions.

...makes me wonder why Americans want to work at all. There can't be any personal investment in your employer when you have at-will employment. Need to take your kid to the hospital ? You're fired. Got cancer ? You're fired. This isn't a concern with you as a manager, but with a system where anybody can be fired for anything at any time.

It just makes people see their jobs as the thing they do when they're not out living their life.

 

[the 4th hanson bro]

In December, I gave the people I supervise my home and cell number in addition to my work one. They also have my work e-mail address. As result, they have no reason to say they don’t have a way to get in touch with me if they aren’t coming in or running late.

You confused them with too many choices.

On Thursday, I met with all of them and told them that if they’re running late, (10-20 minutes) they need to call me and tell me they’re running late. If not, I will mark them down on their timesheet as out for the day and they’ll be on record as being out 8 hours

Hard ass.

Of course, I only have one person who abuses the “get to work at 8 if you’re scheduled here that time” policy. And this person is currently on probation for poor performance (I inherited him). Since this person has worked before (he mentions what he used to do at similar jobs in the past) and I would assume is not currently brain dead, I would assume he knows to call his supervisor when he is running late.

How much fun would it be if there weren't one?

Today I get an e-mail from a member of my team who has permission to start his day thirty minutes before the rest of us, and I hear that this guy has called him to say he’s stuck in traffic.

Did I get a message from him? I, his supervisor? Nope. Just sticks his head in the door this morning when he drags in late and tells me “I didn’t know if I should call you or not.”

So he's working for free today?

Why the hell would you not call your boss and tell them you’re coming in late???????

Because you're an idiot?

But no. And here I go, wasting time I don’t have documenting because we don't work in private industry where things are that much easier.

It's really not. We went round with an assistant for 13 months building a case based on excessive absence and tardiness with lack of notification. At the end, she tried to go on FLMA to protect her position. The only way we got rid of her was to eliminate her job, along with a couple others.

Sure, a phone call doesn't hurt but you could also just not have people not fearing for their jobs when they are 30 minutes late, stop collecting hourly timesheets and instead grant them a little bit of occasional flexibility to deal with the fact that they exist in the universe for 16 hours a day they aren't at work.

In return, you get happier, more motivated employees, less paperwork and less crap to deal with in general. It kind of works for Google, Microsoft, Nokia and hundreds of other successful companies.

The companies and people who are able to do that have other expectations that they set - namely that the work gets done, when it needs to be done.

Being able to function in that environment also means that the employee has a high degree of personal responsibility, something I think this guy lacks. He knew he was going to be late, instead of calling his boss, he called a friend. As mentioned, the guy has other issues besides being late.

CD also works for a state agency and they're not known for a lot of flexibility for the most part.

 

[Crusher Disciple]

CD also works for a state agency and they're not known for a lot of flexibility for the most part.

Actually, we have more. The state has a responsibility to look as if they take more care to keep people employed and set a standard (or so). And all of our timesheets are public record, so if we allow people to slide in 15 minutes late the taxpayers (who are being laid off) have a right to be angry.

ETA: I told them I'd mark them down as gone the whole day to provide documentation that they're being unresponsible and to keep us from looking like we're fleecing the taxpayers. They'll have an e-mail saing "Stewey out for day" followed by "Correction, Stewey in at 8:30." I won't dock them a day. I'm not that much of a hardass, I just want them to understand we can't fuck with our timesheets as a governemnt agency.

We've pretty much camped out at HR since I got her in Dec to figure out what we need to do to help this guy and protect the agency. My boss and I are very aware of the fact that this is a really difficult time for anyone to lose a job and we've bent over backwards to keep that from happening.

Egads, 13 months!!! I thought 9 was bad.

At the rest.

 

[Hermiod]

The companies and people who are able to do that have other expectations that they set - namely that the work gets done, when it needs to be done.

Being able to function in that environment also means that the employee has a high degree of personal responsibility,

Of course it does, but it works both ways. I am in no way defending this guy, but in general if an employer shows trust in an employee they will get responsibility back. I work for an employer like that and our attrition rate has decreased year on year every year out of the eight I've been here.

something I think this guy lacks. He knew he was going to be late, instead of calling his boss, he called a friend. As mentioned, the guy has other issues besides being late.

Not disputing that at all.

CD also works for a state agency and they're not known for a lot of flexibility for the most part.

Which makes me wonder how the public sector can possibly ever appeal to the best people. If you treat people like replaceable, low-paid drones then what type of employee do you expect to attract ?

It doesn't hurt that those companies have got more money than the public sector, so you have to offer something else instead. I also wouldn't say that American companies are exactly perfect when it comes to labour relations, though.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Time to get rid of him. Give the job to someone who deserves it and actually wants to work.

 

[Crusher Disciple]

Which makes me wonder how the public sector can possibly ever appeal to the best people. If you treat people like replaceable, low-paid drones then what type of employee do you expect to attract ?

It doesn't hurt that those companies have got more money than the public sector, so you have to offer something else instead. I also wouldn't say that American companies are exactly perfect when it comes to labour relations, though.

With the below market salaries, you can't. The attraction lies in the extremely difficult process of being fired if you mess up (witness my hair pulling) and generous vacation time (for the US- we get 15 days).

And I used to work at an agency where my new boss treated me like a drone. That's why I quit to work over here. And why I've bent over backwards to keep from treating people who work for me like cattle.

*sigh* But there's always one person who takes advantage.

 

[the 4th hanson bro]

The thing is, I know people are going to run late. Traffic is a bitch, you have to scrape ice off your car, you sleep late, etc. That's fine.

Just be responsible and call. If this had happened a few times, I could let it slide. But it's every freakin' day that this guy runs in late. Is a phone call too much to do?

Here's a novel idea: Leave earlier.

^No, a phone call isn't too much. It's just that this comment...

You’d think that with all the job cuts today people would at least make an effort to show up and do a little bit of work. And to try and follow their bosses’ directions.

...makes me wonder why Americans want to work at all. There can't be any personal investment in your employer when you have at-will employment. Need to take your kid to the hospital ? You're fired. Got cancer ? You're fired. This isn't a concern with you as a manager, but with a system where anybody can be fired for anything at any time.

It just makes people see their jobs as the thing they do when they're not out living their life.

If that were truly the case, she'd have told him to pack his desk this morning and be out within the hour. Actually, because he cant' be fired easily, it's gotten to the point where a lot of time, effort, energy, and money are being wasted on him to the detriment of those who are invested in their jobs and are proabably picking up his slack.

CD also works for a state agency and they're not known for a lot of flexibility for the most part.

Actually, we have more. The state has a responsibility to look as if they take more care to keep people employed and set a standard (or so). And all of our timesheets are public record, so if we allow people to slide in 15 minutes late the taxpayers (who are being laid off) have a right to be angry.

At what point does this guy poison the well and those employees who are doing well begin to feel slighted because the f*-up is getting all the attention?

ETA: I told them I'd mark them down as gone the whole day to provide documentation that they're being unresponsible and to keep us from looking like we're fleecing the taxpayers. They'll have an e-mail saing "Stewey out for day" followed by "Correction, Stewey in at 8:30." I won't dock them a day. I'm not that much of a hardass, I just want them to understand we can't fuck with our timesheets as a governemnt agency.

Shouldn't the timesheet reflect actual hours worked? In 30 minutes late, out 30 minutes later at the end of the day?

Drop the hammer! You know you want to.

We've pretty much camped out at HR since I got her in Dec to figure out what we need to do to help this guy and protect the agency. My boss and I are very aware of the fact that this is a really difficult time for anyone to lose a job and we've bent over backwards to keep that from happening.

At some point though, you have to quit protecting this guy from himself

Egads, 13 months!!! I thought 9 was bad.

She was good at the system and knew how to use it to her advantage.

At the rest.

Thank you, I'll be here all week.

 

[Crusher Disciple]

At what point does this guy poison the well and those employees who are doing well begin to feel slighted because the f*-up is getting all the attention?

He already had by the time I got here in Dec.

Shouldn't the timesheet reflect actual hours worked? In 30 minutes late, out 30 minutes later at the end of the day?

Oh, it will.

At some point though, you have to quit protecting this guy from himself

It feels to me that's what is going on. But since I'm not an HR professional, I have to defer to them on this. We thought we had a pretty easy way of getting this resolved a month ago, but HR threw us some monkey wrenches on it. So here I sit, documenting and ranting and my other people are getting tired of picking up his slack.

 

[the 4th hanson bro]

HR are typically a bunch of assmonkeys more concerned with protecting the organization from getting sued than anything else.

Good luck dealing with them, hope you can dodge most of the poo being flung.

 

[Plecostomus]

Can't you just invoke the At Will Employment clause in the employment law and be done with the situation? Or does your location not have "at will" employment.

Here that phrase overrides everything except a contact. Seniority, tenure, special arrangements with the boss, EVERYTHING. You want someone gone you simply call them in and tell them you are letting them go without cause under the At Will Employment clause of State Employment Law.

...yeah it gets abused more than you can possibly realize but it's designed for situations like this.

 

[CaptainHawk1]

Is this just a rant? You said that you don't work in the private sector which certainly implies that you work for a government agency which would imply that you probably couldn't have his ass terminated if he burned the building down and tried to piss out the flames.

 

[SeerSGB]

Is this just a rant? You said that you don't work in the private sector which certainly implies that you work for a government agency which would imply that you probably couldn't have his ass terminated if he burned the building down and tried to piss out the flames.

Actually that would qualify him for a promotion as it would demonstrate problem solving skills.