Oh, the irony!

[Christopher]

Well he obviously wanted to go to Eden, but to what? Return to his scientific pursuits there and use them to dominate his followers in a location where nobody would/could come and rescue them from his tyranny? Betray what he told them and convince them it was part of a plan? That it's okay for him to have the tech toys, but not them?

He said he wanted to go to Eden. But he was a cult leader. People like that pretend to be devoted to a higher purpose because it wins them the loyalty of their followers. But it's that loyalty, that obedience and adoration from others, that they really want. Their professed goals are just a means to that end. I'm sure Sevrin knew perfectly well that Eden was a myth, just as Donald Trump knows perfectly well that he's never going to build the damn wall. It's an obvious lie, but he can use it to manipulate people gullible or desperate enough to fall for it, so he pretends to believe it.

 

[Kevman7987]

Well he obviously wanted to go to Eden, but to what? Return to his scientific pursuits there and use them to dominate his followers in a location where nobody would/could come and rescue them from his tyranny? Betray what he told them and convince them it was part of a plan? That it's okay for him to have the tech toys, but not them?

Why not? He's a maniac. I guess even if the plants weren't acid, whoever next came to the planet years down the road would find them all dead from poison anyway.

Starfleet would have tracked them down eventually and found the Jonestown massacre.

 

[Tenacity]

Sevrin was a cult leader telling his followers what they wanted to hear in order to manipulate them into obeying him

My opinion, something similar with Sybok. He created things (not what they wanted to hear) and then took away the pain that thing generated, which he originally gave them in order to malnipulate them.

It's difficult to think of any pain he would have removed from the senior officer to make them turn on Kirk. Sybok might have gotten a warm thank you for removing the pain, but not total allegance. The "i'll take away your pain" was just a way of achieving mind control.

I reallly don't think Bones ever actually took his father off life support. It was a Sybok lie.

 

[Christopher]

It's difficult to think of any pain he would have removed from the senior officer to make them turn on Kirk. Sybok might have gotten a warm thank you for removing the pain, but not total allegance.

I think you're underestimating how powerful pain and pleasure stimuli can be. If the result of "taking away pain" is to induce euphoria, to stimulate the brain's pleasure center, then it could have an addictive effect, like a drug. That's why a lot of people use drugs in the first place -- to alleviate their pain and distress.

I reallly don't think Bones ever actually took his father off life support. It was a Sybok lie.

I think that strips one of the movie's only really good parts of its meaning. It also misunderstands Sybok. He did wield more control than he professed to, yes, but he was more a well-intentioned extremist than anything else. Unlike your typical cult leader, he really did believe in the cause he was pursuing -- and he himself was used and manipulated by the "God" entity. He thought he was really helping people, but he took it too far and lost his way, and then redeemed himself at the end.

 

[Vandervecken]

We don't know if the creators of the Doomsday machine were destroyed by it. In fact we don't know anything about them.

I don't know if the Kelvans were defeated, it's more like they were shown that they had different interests from those who sent them.

The Providers made a wager, mostly to fight boredom, it seems. When you make a wager there is always the possibility to lose. I don't know if there is anything ironic about it.

The minosians and their weapons seems to be the only example of yours that's truly ironic.

You are partially correct about the Doomsday Machine, that we don't know exactly who built it from anything like, say, a license plate with "Iconians" (as an example) on it, but the audience is encouraged by the words put in the mouths of the characters to accept Kirk's explanation and as far as I am concerned this makes it so, as far as storytelling is concerned. Thus, irony.

We can quibble about whether to call what happened to Rojan and the other Kelvans a defeat or not (and I don't think the Kelvans' superior technological prowess and thus likely extreme superiority to the Feds/AQ in warfare was ever in doubt), but the fact remains their plans of conquest were thwarted, and by their own methods. It seems to me that the episode goes to great lengths to point it out--it is the heart of the episode, really, that having human form, they feel too human and thus empathize too much with the real humans as well as desire too much of what the real humans desire to be true to their orginal Kelvan selves. That is irony.

The Providers' only pleasure was gambling on a raw, physical contest, and they kidnapped and forced other sentients to fight to satisfy it. Then they were beaten at THEIR game and by THEIR rules--and the little pastel mushroom-cauliflower-looking bitches even tried to rig the game BY their rules. And Kirk still handed them a defeat. And, and this is the kicker, they didn't lose one to each other, to another Provider, but to one of their kidnapped thralls. They created all the circumstances of their defeat at gambling, and were beaten by a lowly thrall, and the contests they created served to eliminate their contests. If this isn't being hoist by your own petard, which is a saying that encapsulates the meaning and essence of irony, I don't know what is. It's irony of the first water.

 

[locutus101]

We can quibble about whether to call what happened to Rojan and the other Kelvans a defeat or not, but the fact remains their plans of conquest were thwarted, and by their own methods. That is irony.
....

I disagree. It is not a defeat if the person that you allegedly defeated simply comes to see the wisdom of your position. If I show you the advantages of buying a certain type of car and if after thinking about it you agree that that car is exactly what you need. I wouldn't call you defeated.

The providers took Kirk's bet and apparently they intended to honor that bet. forgive me but I fail to see any irony in that. After all they were all powerful, they could have said "Screw that bet" and kept things as they were. In fact it's likely that they thought that the new situation presented more complex challenges to them, would make their lives more interesting as a consequence. Still no irony there.

 

[Vandervecken]

I disagree. It is not a defeat if the person that you allegedly defeated simply comes to see the wisdom of your position. If I show you the advantages of buying a certain type of car and if after thinking about it you agree that that car is exactly what you need. I wouldn't call you defeated.

The providers took Kirk's bet and apparently they intended to honor that bet. forgive me but I fail to see any irony in that. After all they were all powerful, they could have said "Screw that bet" and kept things as they were. In fact it's likely that they thought that the new situation presented more complex challenges to them, would make their lives more interesting as a consequence. Still no irony there.

Locutus, the Kelvans didn't see anything. They FELT everything. If the wonder of being human were amenable to simple logic and thought, they would have been susceptible AS Kelvans. They were NOT susceptible as Kelvans, though. It took transformation into humans to cause them to see it that way, and that transformation was entirely, 100%, their doing. They were beaten--I call it beaten--by their own tactic. Irony.

I don't know what could be clearer than the Providers. Yes, they took the bet, that is the point. Betting was their raison d'etre, and they went ahead and set up all the circumstances of their defeat and lost to a THRALL. Yes, the episode ended with them accepting their new role. It doesn't make their loss of their old role to a thrall any less ironic. Do you doubt that, if they had won, Kirk and all the Enterprise crew would have been slaves for the rest of their short lives? I don't. It isn't as if they simply accepted their new role. They had to lose to a thrall to acquiesce to it. The Providers lost at gambling, at their game and on their terms, to a thrall. Naked irony.

 

[Cyke101]

How about Odo being a completely stiff, by-the-book, stick-in-the-mud hard-ass but he was, by default, a big glop of formless goo? I always thought that was one of Trek's greatest character tricks; the one with the least physical structure was the most rigid of the cast.

For that matter, the Founders were a planet full of goo-people, but what they sought was their brand of order to tame chaos, hence the strictly obedient Jem'Hadar and the sycophantic Vorta.

 

[locutus101]

Locutus, the Kelvans didn't see anything. They FELT everything. If the wonder of being human were amenable to simple logic and thought, they would have been susceptible AS Kelvans. They were NOT susceptible as Kelvans, though. It took transformation into humans to cause them to see it that way, and that transformation was entirely, 100%, their doing. They were beaten--I call it beaten--by their own tactic. Irony.

The Kelvan didn't miss their old selves. In fact as Kirk pointed out they were beginning to find them repulsive. Just like the guy who turned into a fly (in the eponymous movie) , he may have looked ok to himself but to the ones still human he was disgusting.

I don't know what could be clearer than the Providers. Yes, they took the bet, that is the point. Betting was their raison d'etre, and they went ahead and set up all the circumstances of their defeat and lost to a THRALL. Yes, the episode ended with them accepting their new role. It doesn't make their loss of their old role to a thrall any less ironic. Do you doubt that, if they had won, Kirk and all the Enterprise crew would have been slaves for the rest of their short lives? I don't. It isn't as if they simply accepted their new role. They had to lose to a thrall to acquiesce to it. The Providers lost at gambling, at their game and on their terms, to a thrall. Naked irony.

People who make bets are always prepared to the possibility of losing (unless they are insane or cheating but that's another story).

But if you want to see irony in that then why not?

 

[Christopher]

How about Odo being a completely stiff, by-the-book, stick-in-the-mud hard-ass but he was, by default, a big glop of formless goo? I always thought that was one of Trek's greatest character tricks; the one with the least physical structure was the most rigid of the cast.

What I found ironic -- but good -- about Odo was that he seemed like your standard tough-cop character -- to the extent that some early tie-in novelists wrote him as practically a Dirty Harry type with contempt for the lives of lawbreakers -- but it turned out that he was ethically opposed to killing or carrying weapons. Of course, it shouldn't be ironic for a defender of the law to abhor violence, but it's ironic for a fictional "tough cop" character to be a pacifist.

 

[locutus101]

What I found ironic -- but good -- about Odo was that he seemed like your standard tough-cop character -- to the extent that some early tie-in novelists wrote him as practically a Dirty Harry type with contempt for the lives of lawbreakers -- but it turned out that he was ethically opposed to killing or carrying weapons. Of course, it shouldn't be ironic for a defender of the law to abhor violence, but it's ironic for a fictional "tough cop" character to be a pacifist.

He doesn't carry a weapon himself but he has no problem ordering his deputies to fire theirs. I don't think that's ironic though, more like inconsistent.

 

[Christopher]

He doesn't carry a weapon himself but he has no problem ordering his deputies to fire theirs.

But not lethally. That's the point. It's not about guns, it's about reverence for life. In "The Adversary," Odo said, "I've been a security officer most of my humanoid existence. And in all that time, I've never found it necessary to fire a weapon or take a life. I don't intend to start now." And when he was then forced to kill the Changeling spy at the end of that very episode (there's irony for you, albeit a very predictable irony), he said "I never wanted to harm you." Before that, there was "Playing God," when Kira said that destroying the life forms in the proto-universe would be like stepping on ants, and Odo said emphatically, "I don't step on ants."

Although there is the early episode "Vortex," before all this was codified, in which Odo led his Miradorn pursuer into an explosion. It was implied that he killed the Miradorn by doing so, but it was ambiguously enough portrayed that we can assume he didn't.

 

[Phoenix219]

I've heard it said that Alanis' song is more like a littany of bummers than about irony.

In my experiences, being a bit of a bummer definitely adds to an ironic twist, and in fact may be necessary. All a matter of perspective, i suppose.

 

[The Old Mixer]

It probably rained if Zek and Ishka ever got married on Ferenginar.

After so many examples of things that aren't ironic I can never keep straight what is and what isn't, it's like ten thousand spoons and all I need is a knife.

And are you thinking of me when you--wait, that's not the right song....

 

[locutus101]

Remember what the Hirogen said in Flesh and Blood:

"Ironic, isn't it? Our most elusive prey is our own creation."

Was that really ironic?

 

[Christopher]

Remember what the Hirogen said in Flesh and Blood:

"Ironic, isn't it? Our most elusive prey is our own creation."

Was that really ironic?

Well, if they had created it to be their most elusive prey, then it wouldn't be ironic. But if they created it to be a manageable prey that they could successfully hunt down and defeat, and it ended up being the opposite of what they wanted or expected, then yes, that's irony by definition.

 

[JWPlatt]

If the Hirogen became the prey of their creation, that would do better.

 

[sbk1234]

With all of its advanced knowledge, "this simple feeling" is beyond V'ger's comprehension.

 

[locutus101]

With all of its advanced knowledge, "this simple feeling" is beyond V'ger's comprehension.

"you've got that loving feeling"

 

[Tenacity]

... Sybok. He did wield more control than he professed to, yes, but he was more a well-intentioned extremist than anything else

I really don't see Sybok as "well intentioned," more he possesses arrogance. His personal cause is more important than people, certainly more important than their freedom of choice, freedom of mind.

He could have explained his scheme to anyone who would listen, but there would be no guarantee of them becoming his willing thralls. Better to cut to the chase and just mind rape everyone. Do they want to be mind raped? Irrelevant to Sybok's selfish goals.

And yes, I do think Sybok created out of broadcloth the "mercy murdering" of McCoy's father, why fish around in McCoy's mind for a appropriate memory (assuming one even exists), when Sybok can just invent a horrifying fantasy event for McCoy, that only Sybok in all his narcissistic magnificence can then cure.