Of holograms and men

[ria 75]

[This may have been done before or belong to General Discussion but this forum could use a fresh thread - and Voyager is a good forum for this topic.]

Let's take this opportunity to discuss the nature and status of holograms.
Examples of subtopics:

-Are holograms people?
-Which holograms are, and which aren't?
-What is the hologram's role, what is their importance in the lives of Starfleet officers?
-Who's your favourite hologram, and why?
-What hologram would you create? (Ah... this should be a thread of its own.)
...and everything I'm not thinking of.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Voyager's EMH is the perfect example of what a hologram could be. He's not just any computer program; he's a fully sentient life form. I would definitely consider him a person. And an excellent doctor.

 

[Captain Ryan]

Voyager's EMH is the perfect example of what a hologram could be. He's not just any computer program; he's a fully sentient life form. I would definitely consider him a person. And an excellent doctor.

I completely agree, the doctor is just as much a member of Voyager's crew than any other organic being.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

The only 2 "living" holograms are the Doctor and Prof. Moriarty (and possibly his lover, I can't remember). Anyway, I doubt the Federation will consciously create such "living" holograms, considering the ethical dilemma of creating a new race. So those two may be alone, unless the Doctor decides to "create" a child for himself to procreate, or something to the like, but I think the Federation would generally back off from any efforts of populating the "living hologram" race. As for the old EMH's mining dilithium... that's yet to be seen. They are, presumably, being run long-term, as the Doctor was, so may be realizing the world and, given the opportunity, may want to modify their program.

Here's a question: would all the EMHs, having identical programs from the start, under identical circumstances, "evolve" the same way??

Hmmmm... 'living' holograms may be as alone as Data....

 

[Finn]

^Remember how they reacted when Data made his offspring...

 

[ria 75]

[...] As for the old EMH's mining dilithium... that's yet to be seen. They are, presumably, being run long-term, as the Doctor was, so may be realizing the world and, given the opportunity, may want to modify their program.
Here's a question: would all the EMHs, having identical programs from the start, under identical circumstances, "evolve" the same way??
Hmmmm... 'living' holograms may be as alone as Data...

The Federation is probably not completely safe from an uprising of holograms. If Voyager's return had the consequence of allowing the duplication (replication) of mobile emitters, spread on a black market or something... The mining EMHs were already disgruntled...
If they are paranoid as well, and easy to turn evil (what Captain Ransom does very easily to the Doc after doing it to his Doc), all bets are off.

And I think that originally identical EMHs would evolve differently almost as much as human twins if they had different experiences - or access to their own reprogramming, like VOY's Doc does. He gave himself new abilities.

I don't think 'living' holograms would be as alone as Data, since they mimic human appearance and emotions better. They can even pass for humans - closet holograms! Like replicants/androids in other stories.
When we see the Doc in the possible future, in Endgame I believe, he is married to (or living with) a human. He could also be with another hologram.
His creator, Dr Zimmerman, made himself a holographic mate - that's precedent.

Of course the scores of EMHs would find it hard to conceal their identity (and nature) if they couldn't change their appearance. One of the stakes of that story would be access to the technology that allows it.

^Remember how they reacted when Data made his offspring...

I've missed that. It's in a movie?

 

[Timo]

That'd be the Season 3 TNG episode, wait for it, "The Offspring". :thumbsup:

Vic Fontaine appeared lifelike enough, I'd say. And there's no telling how smart the characters of a given holoprogram would really be: they may already have "life" built into them, only held at bay until the player calls for complex conversationalist skills on a specific character. The "lifeness" of a holoprogram might well be something you can turn on and off, or adjust with a slide control...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[foxmulder710]

Captain Ryan, I love your avatar.

 

[foxmulder710]

I'd create a holoprogram that enables my consciousness - in the form of a highly complex algorithm - to live on for eternity.

I mean, if Zimmerman can do it, why can't I?

 

[FalTorPan]

Here's something to consider. Imagine a democratic community of ten entities: nine organic life forms and one holoperson. Everyone in the community has an equal vote in any policy. The holoperson knows it has the minority viewpoint in an upcoming vote, so it duplicates itself until it (in conjunction with its duplicates) has the majority viewpoint.

Is this legal? Moral? Ethical?

 

[superstring01]

^Remember how they reacted when Data made his offspring...

Which, though a dramatic episode, was absolutely unbelievable. The definition of intelligence is obvious, and the characteristics are even more so. This is the UFP, any being that is a citizen of any planet is a sentient being and ONLY UFP citizens may join star fleet. Somewhere, on some planet (I'm guessing his home world or Omicron Theta). Even more stupid is that this entire process occurred in a military court. The civilian courts should have handled it and were I in the captain's position I would have placed calls to every member of the Federation council and said, "Hey your standing as a living being is threatened here because if Star Fleet can take away Data's individuality, they can take away yours... this is the start of a tyranny and it needs to be stopped."

Even more, it's impossible to believe that an organization of "alien" worlds did not set out some definition of what is life early on in its existence, which definition, wasn't trumpeted out in order to defend Data.

~String

 

[Triskelion]

This is an interesting question. I mean, what is the difference between, say, the Love Goddess of Rixx (who was based on a real person, too) and Minuet, Vic et al? Just because the latter holos had more subprograms to be more adaptive to their environments, at exactly what point would intelligent individualism emerge? Or is it human ego that supposes it can create "life"?

It's hard to understand this question not understanding the link between chemistry and biology. Which kind of relates to the suicide thread - not understanding life, what is it besides conceit, that humans should define it, or cross that barrier arbitrarily?

What if the Doctor were treated as an individual, but in actual fact, he was not self-aware, but only a simulation of self-awareness?

Voyager's final judgment came from "Author Author", wherein it was determined the Doctor had legal rights (as an artist) but not human rights. (Yet).

 

[ria 75]

What if the Doctor were treated as an individual, but in actual fact, he was not self-aware, but only a simulation of self-awareness?

Voyager's final judgment came from "Author Author", wherein it was determined the Doctor had legal rights (as an artist) but not human rights. (Yet).

One way of seeing it is to consider that he is a person once there is consensus about it, whatever he himself is aware of.

If people behave like he's a person, change their behaviour for him, treat him like a person, then I guess it makes him a person, whether his self-awareness is simulated or not.

And I'm sure he can show more humanity in his subroutines than some humans...

 

[Triskelion]

What if the Doctor were treated as an individual, but in actual fact, he was not self-aware, but only a simulation of self-awareness?

Voyager's final judgment came from "Author Author", wherein it was determined the Doctor had legal rights (as an artist) but not human rights. (Yet).

One way of seeing it is to consider that he is a person once there is consensus about it, whatever he himself is aware of.

If people behave like he's a person, change their behaviour for him, treat him like a person, then I guess it makes him a person, whether his self-awareness is simulated or not.

And I'm sure he can show more humanity in his subroutines than some humans...

Good point.
(Like your ava).

 

[bintak]

[...] As for the old EMH's mining dilithium... that's yet to be seen. They are, presumably, being run long-term, as the Doctor was, so may be realizing the world and, given the opportunity, may want to modify their program.
Here's a question: would all the EMHs, having identical programs from the start, under identical circumstances, "evolve" the same way??
Hmmmm... 'living' holograms may be as alone as Data...

The Federation is probably not completely safe from an uprising of holograms. If Voyager's return had the consequence of allowing the duplication (replication) of mobile emitters, spread on a black market or something... The mining EMHs were already disgruntled...
If they are paranoid as well, and easy to turn evil (what Captain Ransom does very easily to the Doc after doing it to his Doc), all bets are off.

And I think that originally identical EMHs would evolve differently almost as much as human twins if they had different experiences - or access to their own reprogramming, like VOY's Doc does. He gave himself new abilities.

I don't think 'living' holograms would be as alone as Data, since they mimic human appearance and emotions better. They can even pass for humans - closet holograms! Like replicants/androids in other stories.
When we see the Doc in the possible future, in Endgame I believe, he is married to (or living with) a human. He could also be with another hologram.
His creator, Dr Zimmerman, made himself a holographic mate - that's precedent.

Of course the scores of EMHs would find it hard to conceal their identity (and nature) if they couldn't change their appearance. One of the stakes of that story would be access to the technology that allows it.

^Remember how they reacted when Data made his offspring...

I've missed that. It's in a movie?

Congratulations on that concept! THAT IDEA should have been the script basis for Nemesis not the mess we received. It would have made a good post Voyager movie.

 

[SoM]

This is the UFP, any being that is a citizen of any planet is a sentient being and ONLY UFP citizens may join star fleet.

Not true - Nog wasn't a Federation citizen, and he got into the Academy (reaching the rank of junior Lt at the end of the DS9 series).

Granted, he needed Cmdr. Sisko to vouch for him, but he still didn't need to be a Fed citizen from the start.

 

[An Officer]

If we had holograms in this day and age, no doubt they'd be the pride and joy of the sex industry.

Just thought I'd lower the tone a bit.

 

[foxmulder710]

P.S. Holograms are people, too.

Consider the Turing test. If you and I are not able to distinguish functionally between the answers some highly-complex instant-messaging algorithm and a "Real" person in practice, then why should we not in practice treat them both the same?

 

[Timo]

We should, insofar as conversations are concerned. But that doesn't mean we should extend that treatment to the entire "life" or existence of these algorithms in general.

One can have a perfectly civilized conversation with, say, a mass murderer, establishing him as a fellow human by the Turing test. That doesn't mean he should be entitled to the same treatment some other, less mass-murderous human would get. There may be pressing reasons to consider the Trek sentient holograms as either "restricted" or "privileged" people, giving them less or more rights than is the human(oid) average, just like we give less rights to mass murderers and more rights to policemen.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Unicron]

I think Voyager's EMH certainly demonstrated that holograms have the capacity for solution, but I also consider him a unique case - he evolved to use that capacity because of the circumstances which Voyager encountered. If the ship had never been towed into the DQ, it's unlikely the EMH would have had the same opportunity.

I view a being like Data in a different light, because they're really no different from organics - the capacity to grow is always there, and is the main impetus for development. Data's evolution into sentience wasn't like the Doc's, where he could just add the desired data to his programming.