Is that the actual quote? Implying that elsewhere (on another planet with different conditions), it wouldn't be that powerful?
Obsession Question
- Thread starter Vger23
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Is that the actual quote? Implying that elsewhere (on another planet with different conditions), it wouldn't be that powerful?
The phrase certainly gets two different meanings, depening on whether we view "Obsession" alone or as part of Star Trek.
If antimatter were a known quantity and a regular ingredient in photon torpedoes and all, there would be no sense in Garrovick telling his skipper "Just think". It would be akin to him all of a sudden saying "Just think, Sir, this howlizer here is a thousand times stronger than this rifle I'm carrying" in the middle of WWII - grounds for sending him off the front lines due to debilitating insanity. How could something like that be news, or food for thought?
If the idea of using antimatter as a weapon were all-new here, and Kirk the first-ever skipper to think of it, then Garrovick's awe would make perfect sense, of course. But only if.
So if "Obsession" is to be part of Star Trek, then out-of-the-box ideas like yours are not only welcome but absolutely necessary!
Timo Saloniemi
If antimatter were a known quantity and a regular ingredient in photon torpedoes and all, there would be no sense in Garrovick telling his skipper "Just think". It would be akin to him all of a sudden saying "Just think, Sir, this howlizer here is a thousand times stronger than this rifle I'm carrying" in the middle of WWII - grounds for sending him off the front lines due to debilitating insanity. How could something like that be news, or food for thought?
If the idea of using antimatter as a weapon were all-new here, and Kirk the first-ever skipper to think of it, then Garrovick's awe would make perfect sense, of course. But only if.
So if "Obsession" is to be part of Star Trek, then out-of-the-box ideas like yours are not only welcome but absolutely necessary!
Timo Saloniemi
Sadly, that's one script I don't have access to at the moment. But if the line is accurate it's colloquial English enough to not require scrutiny. "This here antimatter sure is powerful!"
Is this evidence that TOS photon torpedoes are not antimatter weapons? Big glob of light = photons. What generates the light and contains the energy? Could it be a fully ionized (maximum electric change in extremely heated) plasma weapon of some kind? Max. range is about 100 thousand kilometers. Speed? If photons are light, then probably c. On screen, we see ~one second travel time to reach its range of 10's of thousands of kilometers; this looks like the speed of light or slightly slower, not higher warp speeds.
In "Obsession":
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/47.htm
But a number of TrekBBS members should own copies of "Obsession" and could play it to hear exactly what Garrovick says in that line, though of course the line might not have been said exactly as the script intended.
Maurice and I interpret those words differently than Laura Cynthia Chambers.
In Maurice and my opinion Garrovick said the equivalent of: "Less than one ounce of the antimatter that's right here beside us in this container would be more powerful than 10,000 cobalt bombs".
Maurice and I do not interpret his words as implying that the explosive power of the antimatter was dependent on which planet it was on.
It seems to me that if young Ensign Garrovick, who graduated from the Academy only a few years ago, had never been an engineer or weapons specialist or refueling technician or had any other antimatter related assignment, this could be the closet by several orders of magnitude he had ever come to a container of antimatter. And not just a typical amount of antimatter, but probably at least an ounce. A WHOLE OUNCE OF ANTIMATTER!!!
So possibly that might have impressed Garrovick and made him nervous (it should make any of us super nervous) and perhaps made him babble on about something that both he and Kirk had known for many years (and maybe get the calculations wrong) just to have something to say and ease his tension.
I think that possibly a member of the US armed forces might react that way when standing next to an atomic bomb that was going to be exploded for a test in a short time, no matter how well he and his companions knew the yield of that model of atomic bomb.
And out of universe I think that the writers might have put that line in the script to educate many members of the audience about the incredible power of an ounce of antimatter.
As for this possibly being the first time antimatter was used as a weapon in their knowledge, what are the histories of "Obsession" and of "The Immunity Syndrome"?
Memory Alpha lists "Obsession" as the 48th TOS episode produced and the 42nd broadcast (15 December 1967), with a stardate of 3619.2; and lists "The Immunity Syndrome" as the 49th episode produced and the 47th broadcast (19 January 1968), with a stardate of 4307.1. Thus "Obsession" would happen before "the Immunity Syndrome" according to all three of the most common orders of TOS episodes.
(According to Memory Alpha the story outline for "Obsession" is dated 19 May 1967, and the latest page revision to the script dated 12 October 1967; while the story outline for "The Immunity Syndrome" is dated 7 August 1967 and the latest page revision is dated 24 October 1967. So the scripts were being worked on at the same time for months and as far as I know using antimatter might have been added to either script first.)
So it is chronologically plausible for Captain Kirk to first think of using antimatter to kill a dangerous space creature that was about to spawn in "Obsession" and not in "The Immunity Syndrome".
But in "The Immunity Syndrome":
And:
This dialog indicates that Kirk got the animatter idea from McCoy's mention of antibodies. And nobody mentions having used antimatter against a vaguely similar foe probably less than a year earlier. Do they all have amnesia?
Fortunately my theory that almost every TOS episode happens in an alternate universe of its own would enable the protagonists to independently think of using antimatter in two different episodes in two different alternate universes.
Note that in "The Immunity Syndrome when Kirk decides to blast the nucleus with antimatter the delivery method chosen is not a photon torpedo but an ordinary non weapon probe with a magnetic bottle and antimatter installed in it. Nobody mentions photo torpedoes.
This supports any theory that photon torpedoes do not, repeat not, normally carry matter-antimatter charges in TOS and weaponizing antimatter is a relatively unheard of idea in TOS, thus making it more likely that Garrovick would express awe at the power of an ounce of antimatter used as a weapon for the first time he could remember.
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/47.htm
But a number of TrekBBS members should own copies of "Obsession" and could play it to hear exactly what Garrovick says in that line, though of course the line might not have been said exactly as the script intended.
Maurice and I interpret those words differently than Laura Cynthia Chambers.
In Maurice and my opinion Garrovick said the equivalent of: "Less than one ounce of the antimatter that's right here beside us in this container would be more powerful than 10,000 cobalt bombs".
Maurice and I do not interpret his words as implying that the explosive power of the antimatter was dependent on which planet it was on.
It seems to me that if young Ensign Garrovick, who graduated from the Academy only a few years ago, had never been an engineer or weapons specialist or refueling technician or had any other antimatter related assignment, this could be the closet by several orders of magnitude he had ever come to a container of antimatter. And not just a typical amount of antimatter, but probably at least an ounce. A WHOLE OUNCE OF ANTIMATTER!!!
So possibly that might have impressed Garrovick and made him nervous (it should make any of us super nervous) and perhaps made him babble on about something that both he and Kirk had known for many years (and maybe get the calculations wrong) just to have something to say and ease his tension.
I think that possibly a member of the US armed forces might react that way when standing next to an atomic bomb that was going to be exploded for a test in a short time, no matter how well he and his companions knew the yield of that model of atomic bomb.
And out of universe I think that the writers might have put that line in the script to educate many members of the audience about the incredible power of an ounce of antimatter.
As for this possibly being the first time antimatter was used as a weapon in their knowledge, what are the histories of "Obsession" and of "The Immunity Syndrome"?
Memory Alpha lists "Obsession" as the 48th TOS episode produced and the 42nd broadcast (15 December 1967), with a stardate of 3619.2; and lists "The Immunity Syndrome" as the 49th episode produced and the 47th broadcast (19 January 1968), with a stardate of 4307.1. Thus "Obsession" would happen before "the Immunity Syndrome" according to all three of the most common orders of TOS episodes.
(According to Memory Alpha the story outline for "Obsession" is dated 19 May 1967, and the latest page revision to the script dated 12 October 1967; while the story outline for "The Immunity Syndrome" is dated 7 August 1967 and the latest page revision is dated 24 October 1967. So the scripts were being worked on at the same time for months and as far as I know using antimatter might have been added to either script first.)
So it is chronologically plausible for Captain Kirk to first think of using antimatter to kill a dangerous space creature that was about to spawn in "Obsession" and not in "The Immunity Syndrome".
But in "The Immunity Syndrome":
And:
This dialog indicates that Kirk got the animatter idea from McCoy's mention of antibodies. And nobody mentions having used antimatter against a vaguely similar foe probably less than a year earlier. Do they all have amnesia?
Fortunately my theory that almost every TOS episode happens in an alternate universe of its own would enable the protagonists to independently think of using antimatter in two different episodes in two different alternate universes.
Note that in "The Immunity Syndrome when Kirk decides to blast the nucleus with antimatter the delivery method chosen is not a photon torpedo but an ordinary non weapon probe with a magnetic bottle and antimatter installed in it. Nobody mentions photo torpedoes.
This supports any theory that photon torpedoes do not, repeat not, normally carry matter-antimatter charges in TOS and weaponizing antimatter is a relatively unheard of idea in TOS, thus making it more likely that Garrovick would express awe at the power of an ounce of antimatter used as a weapon for the first time he could remember.
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Then again, the military frequently utilizes dedicated demolition charges to accomplish destruction that could theoretically be achieved by firing regular weapons at the target, too. It's just much more efficient to rig up a special demolition device than to expend ten Harpoons or three dozen iron bombs. The explosives used might not be exactly the same, but nothing rules out using, say, Torpex in both weapons and demolition devices in yer typical Alistair McLean adventure.
Kirk's doubletalk about anti-power there is certainly different enough from the fairly straighforward blowing up of the Vampire Cloud (and half a planet) to qualify it as an all-new Kirk invention, independent of the earlier adventure. Then again, I wouldn't rule out amnesia as one of the detrimental effects the creature has on nearby humanoids - after all, a basically identical phenomenon, with Nagilum at the center, a century later makes even Data forget all about Kirk's original encounter!
Timo Saloniemi
Kirk's doubletalk about anti-power there is certainly different enough from the fairly straighforward blowing up of the Vampire Cloud (and half a planet) to qualify it as an all-new Kirk invention, independent of the earlier adventure. Then again, I wouldn't rule out amnesia as one of the detrimental effects the creature has on nearby humanoids - after all, a basically identical phenomenon, with Nagilum at the center, a century later makes even Data forget all about Kirk's original encounter!
Timo Saloniemi
Well forgetting about Kirk's encounters with mysterious energy clouds and black entities for the moment, what about all the other starship commanders who fought and survived such battles and submitted their logs too? 
JB
JB
Well forgetting about Kirk's encounters with mysterious energy clouds and black entities for the moment, what about all the other starship commanders who fought and survived such battles and submitted their logs too?
JB
Like CAPTAIN RON TRACEY, one of the most experienced captains in the Starfleet!!!
Here is an observation that shows that Star Trek is not getting all aspects of antimatter physics correct. Remember Lazarus in "Alternative Factor". One of them is antimatter (I believe the sane one), but he freely wanders around in our matter-based universe. The claim is, that matter-Lazarus and antimatter-Lazarus must meet in the same universe to "cancel out violently". Particles don't have identities like people.
In "Obsession", the 1 ounce of antimatter should not be as powerful as they claim. It's certainly not enough to blow the atmosphere off the planet. Most likely, the writers just did not bother to calculate it, but this opens up another possible interpretation to Gavovick's "here" comment. It may not be "here" in the prosaic sense, or "here" as in "on this planet", but "here in this situation". That is, the situation where 1 ounce of antimatter will be released into a unique cloud-creature that controls nuclear reactions at will. There is a possibility that the 1 oz antimatter explosion is analogous to the fission detonation in a hydrogen bomb which then triggers a fusion reaction of much greater energy. It could be as simple as the stunned cloud creature reverts to its hydrogen form by reflex, and now you have a hydrogen/antimatter bomb (probably still not powerful enough to blast the whole planet), or there is unknown nuclear physics at work here in this creature. Spock has figured it out and did the calculation, Scotty checked his math and concurred, and Garovick has overheard it while being briefed on how to handle the device. Later he wants to impress his captain with his newly found knowledge.
Also, I would not assume their Cobalt bomb is the same design/energy as our version. Three hundred years is a lot of time for designs to change and terminology to be recycled.
It seems a stretch to me, but why not create some head-cannon to counteract the writers' miscalculations or misunderstandings of physics? We need new physics to have the Star Trek universe anyway.
In "Obsession", the 1 ounce of antimatter should not be as powerful as they claim. It's certainly not enough to blow the atmosphere off the planet. Most likely, the writers just did not bother to calculate it, but this opens up another possible interpretation to Gavovick's "here" comment. It may not be "here" in the prosaic sense, or "here" as in "on this planet", but "here in this situation". That is, the situation where 1 ounce of antimatter will be released into a unique cloud-creature that controls nuclear reactions at will. There is a possibility that the 1 oz antimatter explosion is analogous to the fission detonation in a hydrogen bomb which then triggers a fusion reaction of much greater energy. It could be as simple as the stunned cloud creature reverts to its hydrogen form by reflex, and now you have a hydrogen/antimatter bomb (probably still not powerful enough to blast the whole planet), or there is unknown nuclear physics at work here in this creature. Spock has figured it out and did the calculation, Scotty checked his math and concurred, and Garovick has overheard it while being briefed on how to handle the device. Later he wants to impress his captain with his newly found knowledge.
Also, I would not assume their Cobalt bomb is the same design/energy as our version. Three hundred years is a lot of time for designs to change and terminology to be recycled.
It seems a stretch to me, but why not create some head-cannon to counteract the writers' miscalculations or misunderstandings of physics? We need new physics to have the Star Trek universe anyway.
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Well, antimatter in "Alternative Factor" is quite probably used as an analogy only. It is for the benefit of the audience, but perhaps also for the benefit of Kirk: it is one of those "Spock explains things as to a child" moments, only with the Captain rather than McCoy at the receiving end.
That is, when Spock says "More specifically, antimatter", he is saying "More simply, think of it as antimatter". Makes so much more sense, both in- and out-universe.
Doesn't mean antimatter on Trek wouldn't behave funnily. But I attribute that to it breaching the wall between this universe and others. Fire enough photn torpedoes around Narendra III and you rip a hole in time. Use a whole ounce (whatever that means in the post-Imperial era, might be fifty kilograms), and you tap into subspace for extra oomph.
Timo Saloniemi
That is, when Spock says "More specifically, antimatter", he is saying "More simply, think of it as antimatter". Makes so much more sense, both in- and out-universe.
Doesn't mean antimatter on Trek wouldn't behave funnily. But I attribute that to it breaching the wall between this universe and others. Fire enough photn torpedoes around Narendra III and you rip a hole in time. Use a whole ounce (whatever that means in the post-Imperial era, might be fifty kilograms), and you tap into subspace for extra oomph.
Timo Saloniemi
If the two Lazarus's had of met on the planet then surely they would have caused an explosion big enough just to have annihilated each other and not the entire sector of space? In old TV theory they used to imply that the whole galaxy was at risk unless both Lazari had other devices which may have increased the actual damage?
JB
JB
This is what's in Nimoy's revised final draft script dated October 4, 1967:
117 EXT. SECOND PLANET SURFACE - DAY
Kirk and Garrovick still supporting the anti-matter.
GARROVICK
an ounce of anti-matter here...
and yet more power than ten
thousand cobalt bombs.
KIRK
(nods)
(nods)
whole solar system. I hope it's
as powerful as man gets.
Leaving the hemoplasm where it materialized, they
carry the anti-matter container between them to a
small rise, carefully position it.
I wonder if the episode quote is accurate, and was there a change or did the actor just flub it and the script supe missed it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they mention a writer's shortcut in The Making of Star Trek, where the script would just say [MEASURE] in the middle of a line, and the producers would figure out the units and amounts later?
Or I might be mixing this up with the TNG scripting process, and they might have put [TECH] in the script, which meant Sternbach and Okuda would cook up the specific science dialogue later. That might be mentioned in the ST:TNG Technical Manual, which I have but I'm not at home now.
I took a quick look (listen?) at that scene and it sounds like it was looped in post.
Yeah, you beat me to it. I've always thought that about that set of dialogue but wasn't sure why. Good call.
That scene always was a bit of a "huh?" moment. I get it that they want to show as much as they can of their superb planetside set of the week, so there has to be movement. To that end, they put the camera as far away from our heroes as they can, even letting some of the scenery get in between us and Kirk. And it works wonders. No doubt looping would be necessary under the circumstances - the microphone would have to be in outer space in order not to intrude into the shot!
But in-universe, this makes the head spin. Our heroes have beamed down with a bomb that will rip apart small planets. And now they feel the need to move it fifteen meters thataway?!?
I could see a lesser bomb needing to be placed in an advantageous location vis-á-vis the landscape, meaning the nervous glances our heroes cast around would be them searching for this tactical sweet spot, rather than being wary of sweet-scented clouds. But even then, why move just the bomb? Where is the logic of distancing the bomb from the bait?
I could pretend they want to camouflage the bomb, so as not to alert the cloud critter. But they don't move it out of sight of the bait, either.
I guess I can also see both of them just nervously wandering about, neither one wanting to let go of the comforting bomb, and thinking that the other guy knows what he's doing and where he's going... Until they wake up and start working. Or something.
(FWIW, the text stenciled on the antigrav suggests a lifting capacity of 57 tons, so hanging both the bomb and the bait from it wouldn't appear to be difficult! We'd then probably be more likely to ask the obvious question, though - why do Kirk and Garrovick accompany the bomb and the bait to the surface in the first place? Why not plant the detonator on the bomb aboard the ship and then say "Energize"? Does the moving of the detonator the fifty or so centimeters from Kirk's pocket to the frame of the antigrav represent a vital safety margin or what?)
Timo Saloniemi
But in-universe, this makes the head spin. Our heroes have beamed down with a bomb that will rip apart small planets. And now they feel the need to move it fifteen meters thataway?!?
I could see a lesser bomb needing to be placed in an advantageous location vis-á-vis the landscape, meaning the nervous glances our heroes cast around would be them searching for this tactical sweet spot, rather than being wary of sweet-scented clouds. But even then, why move just the bomb? Where is the logic of distancing the bomb from the bait?
I could pretend they want to camouflage the bomb, so as not to alert the cloud critter. But they don't move it out of sight of the bait, either.
I guess I can also see both of them just nervously wandering about, neither one wanting to let go of the comforting bomb, and thinking that the other guy knows what he's doing and where he's going... Until they wake up and start working. Or something.
(FWIW, the text stenciled on the antigrav suggests a lifting capacity of 57 tons, so hanging both the bomb and the bait from it wouldn't appear to be difficult! We'd then probably be more likely to ask the obvious question, though - why do Kirk and Garrovick accompany the bomb and the bait to the surface in the first place? Why not plant the detonator on the bomb aboard the ship and then say "Energize"? Does the moving of the detonator the fifty or so centimeters from Kirk's pocket to the frame of the antigrav represent a vital safety margin or what?)
Timo Saloniemi
Well, there were 8 planets and they destroyed 1/2 of one, that's about right!
Unless..... you count the star and destroying that, but then you need to do a lot more math and thinking and junk.
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